It's kicking off in London...

[sgw]

I just like the Churchill quote, I see it as the luxury of youth being the freedom to care, and as you get older, generally the worries are more mundane and day to day

No problem Nick. We obviously have very different viewpoints. You see I particularly dislike that quote. You can imagine how often I hear it.

Some people use it to suggest that idealism is childish and should be abandoned with maturity to enable a easier and more conscience free climb up the greasy pole of self advancement. I see it as the self justification of the middle aged for not caring much at all about anything apart from their own comfort and self satisfaction. (no personal dig intended)

I agree that it is generally a luxury of youth to care but find that fact itself is damming indictment of our rat race of a society. It doesn't have to be like that but such an attitude ensures that it will remain so. I also accept your point about the large and small "c" and "l" but think the principle is the same.

sgw - CSE woodwork (grade 4) Sydney Smith Comprehensive, Hull 1970

 

[JohnH]

JohnH... I have taken the trouble to correct the "misunderstandings" in your last post.

Well sgw, I suppose I should be grateful that you've graciously deigned to judge the contents of my post as a series of "misunderstandings" -- other posts which you hastily dismissed as "irrelevant" weren't so lucky...

If you want to continue your study of Socialism, your really should start another thread.

Pulling my own toenails out with pliers would be a better use of my time than studying Socialism.

Don't want to get the thread closed, do we?

As soon as John gets anywhere near locking this thread, I shall bribe him with chip butties to keep it open...

[Back in modern times, when people are genuinely bloody poor and child mortality is high,

"Britain has the second highest child death rate among the 24 richest countries in the world, with infants in the UK twice as likely to die before the age of five as children in Sweden."
http://www.independent.co.uk/life-s...ality-rate-is-linked-to-inequality-442806.htm

Wait a minute.... You've gone through a post that compared the conditions of the working classes in Victorian times with the conditions of the working classes in 2010 and changed the past tense to the present tense... which means that you think that working class life in 2010 is as bad? You think that Britain today is in the same state as the one that Dickens witnessed and wrote about?

sgw, your theories are so far off the planet, I'm gonna have to ask Patrick Moore to take a look at them and tell me what he sees.

In Victorian times, the aristocracy didn't have central heating, electric lighting, double glazing, advanced healthcare, telephones, television -- and they certainly didn't have access to the global telecommunications network that you're using right now; all of the things that are pretty much standard issue in the council/housing association accommodation that's made available to the poorest in society in 2010.

Once again, you've started with the assumption that the working classes in 2010 are all helpless victims, and have re-written history to support that conclusion.

“The truth will set you free. But first, it will piss you off.”
Gloria Steinem

What you've written is only the 'truth' for somebody with an "external locus of control"...

People with an internal locus of control believe that they are primarily responsible for the outcomes in their lives. These people tend to be self-reliant and believe that nothing can hold them back except themselves. Studies have shown that those with an internal locus of control tend to be more successful people because they believe they can be and work toward that goal. Men tend to be more internally focused, while studies have also shown that the older a person gets the more internally focused they become.

Those with an external locus of control believe that forces outside of themselves affect their ability to succeed. They tend to stake their future on things such as fate, luck, god or society. Because they believe they have very little personal stake in their future, those with an external locus of control tend to put less effort forward on most projects. Studies show that they are generally less successful in college and career than those with an internal locus of control.

...but universal self empowerment is the way to achieve it.

"Universal self empowerment" is a contradiction in terms. Self empowerment is a DIY project that you carry out on yourself; you read the books that will improve your knowledge, you learn the skills that will improve your prospects, you try to adopt the attitudes that will nuture your sense of self worth and optimism, you try to break the habits that are holding you back.

You can't do this to another person's life because you can't lead their life for them (even though the average bossy, interfering socialist would love to lead everybody else's life for them... :roll: ).

 

[JohnH]

Just three comments by three tory government advisors in recent weeks, it is not painting the tories in a good light, with suggestions that they are to be known as the nasty party.

There are people who will see the Labour party as far 'nastier' than the Conservatives: Elizabeth Filkin, Pam Warren, Walter Wolfgang, Dr. David Kelly....

 

[JohnH]

What a bunch of ill informed militant Marxist idiots. I can only describe these protest as the young and naive being led by professional militants who would in all honesty jump at any chance to demonstrate for demonstrations sake. Some of the rhetoric I heard being shouted by these students was just absurd, ill-informed and just utter nonsense. Most have zero career aspirations in their chosen discipline with many just seeing University as a way to put off growing up and taking responsibility for their lives. This is not an 'off the cuff' remark but is what I have learnt from questioning and interacting with persons present.

We as a Nation cannot afford to waste thousands of pounds on educating young people for educations sake. We should of course reward excellence and academic ability but some of these soft 'ology' degrees are just a complete waste of time. They provide little or no career routes, are laughed at by industry and don't even provide any further academic research or dare I say it even any original thoughts.

Gadro, if the neighbours are wondering why I'm cheering and clapping, it's because I'm reading your post. It's always a pleasure to read some simple bloody common sense. Best wishes to you mate.

 

[marin man]

Common sense.....you should be given a degree for that statement alone

 

[sgw]

Tell you what John, you speak for yourself and I will speak for myself.

Wait a minute.... You've gone through a post that compared the conditions of the working classes in Victorian times with the conditions of the working classes in 2010 and changed the past tense to the present tense...

No I haven't.
I edited your post to show that despite your unsupported and irrational suggestion that there are no longer significant detrimental effects of poverty in this country, there are many and they are likely to grow under the current regime. These effects seriously impact on every aspect of peoples lives from infant mortality to premature death. I even gave links to independent evidence.

which means that you think that working class life in 2010 is as bad?

No I don't.
We have made enormous gains since Victorian times. Unfortunately we have suffered reverses in recent decades. There are even loonies about who want to go back to Victorian values!

You think that Britain today is in the same state as the one that Dickens witnessed and wrote about?

No I don't.
At least in Scotland and Wales they recognise the benefits and importance of making education available to all regardless of wealth. Pity about England. Britain? A disintegrating imperialist construct it seems.

Once again, you've started with the assumption that the working classes in 2010 are all helpless victims,

No I haven't.
I believe that when united, the working class are the most powerful force in the land. As such we are more than strong enough to help ourselves. We will have to as no one else will.

and have re-written history to support that conclusion.

No I haven't
As I don't make the assumption you incorrectly assume, I wouldn't.

What you've written is only the 'truth' for somebody with an "external locus of control".

No it's not.
The truth that poverty has devastating effects on many peoples lives is well documented (see links in previous post, many more if required). Amateur cod psychology has nothing to do with it.

"Universal self empowerment" is a contradiction in terms.

No it isn't.

Empowerment

1.The granting of political, social or economic power to an individual or group.
2.The process of supporting another person or persons to discover and claim personal power.

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/empowerment

I don't need or want anyone to "grant" or "support" me in acquiring political, social or economic power, I will fight my own battles. Anyone empowered by a self serving "higher" authority will be just as easily dissempowered should they try to use that power. Self empowerment in contrast can't be taken away.

So Universal self empowerment makes perfect sense. Everyone taking control and responsibility for their own lives, while of course recognising and respecting the right of everyone else to do the same.

You can't do this to another person's life because you can't lead their life for them

True.

(even though the average bossy, interfering socialist would love to lead everybody else's life for them... :roll: ).

I totally agree. If you only knew of the arguments I have had this week with bossy, interfering socialists.

 

[marin man]

Why oh why dont you just go and do some charity work to make your self feel better or perhaps even get a real job and improve your lot from that direction instead of continually talking rubbish and wasting your life and everybody elses time,you and your groups will make no difference to anythng,the only way to make any difference is to vote wisely,like most of the country did at the last election....

 

[sgw]

,you and your groups will make no difference to anythng

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-11911705

 

[marin man]

Postponing the inevitable thats all,all you will do is force the meeting to take place without publicity :roll:

You are ENTITLED to nothing and have to work for what you get in life and not expect everything to be given to you on a plate.....if you are not happy with your lot then go and work in the fields or such like and improve it

 

[FMJ]

blah, blah, blah.....

What do you do for a living? By that I mean where does your money come from? What you use to pay for food and lodgings (assuming your lodgings aren't your parent's basement). I program CNC machines. I'm quite productive, and happy with what I do. You sound like you're neither (and no, blogging on internet forums does NOT count as productive).