It's kicking off in London...

[dbmtb]

Chucked at education...invested elswhere.!

imo, the education of our children is the greatest investment any civilised society can make.

I should have put "higher education". In my haste, I forgot to make myself clear.

Basically in this country, your degree is worthless unless it´s an MA or MSC. An undergraduate degree doesn´t count for anything. This means most people are spending 2 years too many on their degrees compared to everyone else in Europe, particularly when graduate employment statistics are the same as many other countries. I couldn't afford to finish my law degree because of this extra time.... Money down the toilet.

Universities here have often been furnished with Arne Jacobsen chairs and suchlike, to the extent that people have been coming to Denmark from Eastern Europe to steal vanloads of chairs from lecture theatres.... That's money from the education budget.

But I do concede - one of the reasons we stay here is our kids´education. Less regimented than the UK, the kids are on first-name terms with the teachers. Because the social class divide is smaller, school uniforms aren't necessary. Class sizes are close to ideal.

But away from the little suburban dream world I and my family inhabit - there is a darker side of Denmark - with ghettos, illiteracy, teenage crime etc... You just don't hear about it.

 

[pigman]

you're well versed in the theory of protests? Ye jest, surely? Too much time methinks .. anyway, a theory is just that .. a theory, by definition unproven and not yet a factual law

Considering the amount of protests I have been on, I suppose I am well versed, yes. ........ My time and how I spend it is btw, my own business, as yours is yours.

yeah, fair point. I cocked up by assuming you'd spent your time reading up the theories. If you've actually been there, got the tshirt etc, then I have respect for you (even tho' its not my bag). In my defence m'lud I did use the word "methinks", which makes it an opinion only, rather than being prescriptive. But, my cockup here does merit a "sorry"

My grandchildren who naturally see Granddad as a old man with an old mans attitudes and opinions will obviously find it hilarious to know that others could describe me as immature and reminiscent of their 20yr old cousin. It amused and flattered me anyway. Absolutely no sniping or sarcasm.

Yeah, learnt some more about you. didnt know you were middle aged. Go for it matey, they say youth is wasted on the young ... good if youre able to keep it.

While I sympathise with any difficulties your ADHD causes you, you can't seriously be suggesting that all posts and comments should be tailored to your particular condition.

agreed, to work it has to go with the majority. Ultimate tailoring would mean nothing ever takes off. Its just that your post inferred (to me anyhow) that the one liner posters were thickos with nothing to add and that contributors to these threads needed to be advanced-literacy merchants.

We all have our burdens to carry and need to realise that in the outside world, while any individuals problems should be considered, respected and alleviated as much as possible, we all have to do the best we can within our own ability.

burdens, my ass. Its a distinct advantage. I have the energy of fellas half my age, dont vegetate in front of the tv and cos I'm constantly on the go can eat what I want

In fact, without wanting to sound patronising, I think your own post puts many others to shame despite your difficulties.

cheers, but it did take ages. another man would have spent a fraction of the time on it.

As I said above, I have spent almost half a century fighting against discrimination of any sort, of course I wouldn't want anybody to feel excluded.

that comes across as obvious, hence my surprise at knocking those that arent eloquent posters

TBH the original topic was about the student protests. In principle I have much sympathy with them (how could I not, working in a school). I'm sorta with them in protesting, but cannot go with vandalism and violence. Altho' I didnt particularly enjoy Uni (couldnt wait to work and only really got my life going in the world of work), I was fortunate enough to come from a working class background and be given the chance.
My gripe with students these days is that further and higher education these days is the default, cos it keeps down the dole queues and clearly many students arent "proper" (there's a controvertial adjective for you to bite on ) university material, getting degrees in advanced vole watching and the like.

 

[NickD]

SGW, that comes across as paranoia and reflects the views i see from friends in their early 20s.

Thanks for a considered response, a welcome and refreshing change.

I don't think you know me well enough or have read the thread carefully enough to make your arbitrary diagnosis of immature, paranoid, bigot on me though. It takes more than a passing acquaintance on a forum to know someone and I don't think you are justified in poping up just to make disparaging comments about my personality and character. Good job I am used to it and patient. Challenging my comments if you like but name calling, however politely done doesn't get us anywhere.

It is fact, not paranoia, that the cuts will disadvantage the poorest to the advantage of the richest and they are being imposed by a gang of multi millionairs with no electoral mandate to do so.

I was not name calling in saying that your post comes across as paranoia, just calling it as I see it. Another way would be that you sound like a conspiracy theorist. No offense intended, that is my opinion on how your posts come across.

'Bigot - intolerant of beliefs that differ from ones own'. You must concede that at least some of your posts resemble that description. I will admit that the word has negative connotations, and I was playing on them a little.

At no point did I accuse you of immaturity. It is a simple fact that the people I know who share your beliefs are all under 30. It may be that they have the luxury of having time to consider these ideas, or it may be that they are like the Churchill quote:

'If you're not a liberal at twenty you have no heart, if you're not a conservative at forty you have no brain'

You claim to be a grandfather? Does that then mean you are at an age that also gives you the luxury of time? Perhaps the quote should continue 'if you are not a ... at 60..'? I'll let you consider how.

Unfortunately, the same friends who share a signifcant proportion of your opinions (as displayed in this thread) are fairly militant labour supporters. I apologise for any offense caused by this

I share your lack of support for any political party. I resent and reject the whole notion of surrendering to the dictatorship of any political elite. This pamphlet pretty much covers my opinions on Parliament and centralised government:-

http://www.afed.org.uk/ace/ap_index.html

So you see my criticism of the ConDem's is not as you assume the result of factional bigotry. I despise them all!

There is indeed a lot of prejudice among some workers toward students and vice versa. I fail to see the relevance of that truism. Those of each sector who are not prejudiced against the other will resist this attack in solidarity. Those of either side who are blinded by prejudice don't interest me in the least If workers don't see that this is their struggle as much as the students, they are being short sighted. Their own children and grandchildren are the ones who will suffer the worst effects. Alliances are already being built between students and workers to co ordinate further resistance into next year. You haven't seen anything yet.

It never ceases to amaze me how those opposed to any protest, demonstration or direct action often presume that they are in a position to suggest how they should be conducted. The vast majority having never been involved in any real protest activity. Even if they had, if they choose to oppose us, they should hardly be surprised that their tactical advice is of no value whatsoever and rejected as opposition propaganda. Should we take advice on pursuing the conflict in Afghanistan from the Taliban?

Your comment about continuing the protest being childish petulance doesn't accord with any theory on protest I have ever heard of, nor with history, reality or even common sense. You will need to explain further how you think a single protest can exert as much effective pressure as a sustained and co-ordinated campaign. Again I would challenge your qualification and experience to make such a claim.

I have been involved in some protest activity - Anti Nazi league in the early 90's, but in a very minor way - I am not an expert and don't propose to have any answers on how any action should be dealt with.

However, my claim that the continued demonstrations come across as childish petulance is based on my opinion of how it seems. It is not meant to accord with any theory, in fact I am the first person I am aware of to say it in the context of a demonstration. As 'the average man in the street' I have far more sympathy with a single, well executed demonstration than a chain of them that end up being a pain (disrupting travel etc) and, at least in my case, will sour me toward a cause. As far as effective pressure goes? I wouldn't pretend to know, again I am calling it as I see it. The same applies to strike action - long term strike action that disrupts my life and ability to work, say a train strike, will only serve to irritate and will not engender support or understanding.

Your equating my own opinions with those of your 20yr old friends is very weak. But at least it will amuse my grandchildren.

Hope you will accept this post in the spirit of debate in which it is intended and not flounce off only to return to snipe. The thread needs people who are capable of constructing a sentence and have an attention span that can cope with more than two lines.

It was not meant to be a weak or poor argument, just my opinion. Hopefully I have backed it up a little here, but it remains only my opinion, however I doubt I am entirely alone in it.

I have not read the entire thread, I admit that, and my reaction and comments are to your last few posts. It's taken me long enough to type this, let alone read a 16 page thread!

 

[sgw]

I'm sorta with them in protesting, but cannot go with vandalism and violence.

I understand that, I am a pacifist myself. I don't believe that violence is an acceptable way to impose political will. I wish the government shared that view. The only excuse for violence is to defend against a violent attack.

Violence can take many forms though. Violence against property always imo being far less an offence than violence against people.

Many people may not agree but I think that managing a society in a way that perpetuates poverty for a large section of its citizens is an extremely violent act against those people.

It sentences them to worse health, housing, social and educational standards and finally condemns them to an earlier death.

Many people will say that it is their own fault that they are at the bottom of the heap. What they fail to realise is that as someone by great effort manages to pull themselves up out of their poverty, they push someone else back down. There may well be room at the top, but not for everyone.

I wasted years promoting and supporting the Labour Party who claimed to support and represent the workers. I used to think that change could be obtained by appealing for justice through Parliament. We were conned. They are just a different grouping of the same people whose primary interest is not in improving our society but in controlling, manipulating and exploiting it.

Some of us have rejected climbing on the backs of our brothers to marginally improve our own comfort. We prefer to work toward the creation of a society which attempts to minimise these inequalities. I believe our current policies, including these cuts, will actually increase them.

As for the violence... just how violent is it permissible for me to be in my attempt to save my grandkids from a life of worse health, less opportunity and an earlier demise than those more wealthy than them? It's not just them either, it goes back for generations of our ancestors dying young after a life of earning profits for the wealthy.

I don't appeal anymore, I demand and I will take. If this results in violence against property, that imo, is more than justified when compared to the violence of the state against the people.

Anyway you might be glad to hear that you will have a rest tomorrow, I am off to Leeds to have words with a bank manager.

11am - Walkout!
11.30am - Meet at Parkinson Steps, Leeds uni
1.30pm - Occupy the Banks!

Sorry Nick, I haven't much time to do a point by point just now. Thanks for your reply, I think we understand each other a bit better now.

I have to quickly refute your accusation of bigotry though. The definition of "intolerant of beliefs that differ from ones own" is fair enough. I would claim though that I have shown remarkable tolerance to the opinion of others on this thread, Even the stupid ones. A bigot would not engage with them but would just dismiss them as many have done with mine.

A bit concerned about the Churchill quote too. Do you seriously think that any deviation from Conservative views is intellectual weakness? I didn't think even most Conservatives would believe that. Rather bigoted too don't you think.

Anyway lots to do, back tomorrow night if I don't get banged up or hospitalised by our brave boys in blue (and full protective gear of course)

Hasta La Victoria Siempre

 

[pigman]

What they fail to realise is that as someone by great effort manages to pull themselves up out of their poverty, they push someone else back down. There may well be room at the top, but not for everyone.

as its written, the logic is right. However, one could argue if all people were equal in wealth, that society as a whole would suffer. For example, what incentive would there be to be a doctor, with all the responsibility that goes with it if there was no enhanced reward? A few may do it for the kudos or for charitable reasons, but probably not enough to have built our NHS which serves the mas populus to good effect. We would be back to life expectancies of what we now consider young middle age. Who would risk their livelihoods to run business? who would undertake dangerous jobs? who would work 12 hour days? and so the list goes on. It seems to me your system proposes a system of worker bees with no queen. But in reality, this cannot be, for talents emerge, for which people are prepared to pay a premium.

I wasted years promoting and supporting the Labour Party who claimed to support and represent the workers. I used to think that change could be obtained by appealing for justice through Parliament. We were conned. They are just a different grouping of the same people whose primary interest is not in improving our society but in controlling, manipulating and exploiting it.

you missed off feathering their own nests, eg mp expenses/bankers. A local ex mp, big in the 70/80's and a devout leftie lives in a house near to where I work. Lets just say the house isnt a terraced and his principles were "left" well behind.

I don't appeal anymore, I demand and I will take. If this results in violence against property, that imo, is more than justified when compared to the violence of the state against the people.

but this very action of damaging something that has been built up is you climbing onto the back of someone (or something they have) to make better for yourself or your successors. Performing a robbery has the same principle and net effect.

have fun tomorrow, wear something distinctive so we see you on look north and remember to not get arrested

 

[rosstheboss]

Boobies

 

[gibbleking]

rather than do something destructive why not spend the day helping the homeless or work in a charity shop...much more productive to the huddled homeless than trying to destroy someone elses things..

 

[silverclaws]

rather than do something destructive why not spend the day helping the homeless or work in a charity shop...much more productive to the huddled homeless than trying to destroy someone elses things..

Would that have the effect to show the government that people were not happy ?

 

[marin man]

The only reason he is still trolling this topic is because he has not been arrested,come you nice policemen


The lower classes are jealous and as such will steal or destroy what they are unwilling to work for...makes me sick,this is evidenced by the fact that you cant have a nice car or bike without some toe rag scratching it or nicking it.....get a life of your own and stop messing about with other peoples.....or join the army


BOOBIES

 

[rosstheboss]

How's the job search going by the way sgw?