It's kicking off in London...

[silverclaws]

...First Lord Young and his comment about Britons never having it so good during the so called recession...

There is truth in that though, there are many Britons who have tracker mortgages close to paying it off, or maybe close to retirement with a good final salary pension lined up, these Britons have seen there disposable income increase during the recession as their salaries have stayed the same but interest rates have plumeted. It's just that at the opposite end off society there are many Britons in or heading into trouble.

Exactly and for such a person in the role of a governmental advisor to make such a statement, it is showing he hasn't got a clue as to the reality of others, perhaps those who have not got a mortgage through the fact that they are poor. But if a government advisor thinks that to be the status quo of the populace, I wonder what advice he has bestowed on those actually in power.

But bricks and mortar in this country at least are at an over inflated price, as people found out when we had the run with negative equity, and perhaps there the reason why house building is not a priority, for it maintains the status quo which controls and makes others wealthy.

The policy of sale of social housing was a multi blow, for not only did it break up the poor community, create conservatives, but it also to an extent created the system the tories wish to crush perhaps as a continuance of Thatcher's ideals.

If housing benefit is such a drain, then the answer is simple, build more houses and bring the house prices down and there lessen the need for housing benefit to pay the rents in a private market, for it is a truth much of the private lets in this country are inhabited by those who would at one time be living in social housing by view of their status, that of poor with little hope because everything costs too much.

Now unless it is the desire to eradicate poverty by driving the poor out I see the policy of selling off social housing as being a complete failure and one of the causes of our present system.

 

[pigman]

It never ceases to amaze me how those opposed to any protest, demonstration or direct action often presume that they are in a position to suggest how they should be conducted.

in most cases, its not a statement of how they should be conducted, but how they should NOT. An (albeit extreme) example.... lets just say that the students had decided to protest by gunning down anything that moved in the street. Most people (and I'm hoping to include you in this) would agree that this is so wrong, yet very few would suggest how it should be done. We see problems with what happens, but we dont have all the solutions. I personally, see no shame in this.

with any theory on protest I have ever heard of

you're well versed in the theory of protests? Ye jest, surely? Too much time methinks .. anyway, a theory is just that .. a theory, by definition unproven and not yet a factual law

But at least it will amuse my grandchildren.

I thought you wanted to keep it sensible, devoid of any sniping or sarcasm ... unless of course theyre professional students of demo theories too

. The thread needs people who are capable of constructing a sentence and have an attention span that can cope with more than two lines.

touched a nerve there fella, as an ADHD sufferer, I physically cant cope with reading long statements and the comprehension of it all becomes muddled. Ive spent an age pulling your post to bits so that I can make sense of it. The short, snappy responses sometimes lose the emotion, but I can follow the text and its jist more easily. its why I dont read books. Are you saying my type should be precluded from enjoying or contributing to such a thread?
in case youre wondering, its a bit of a quiet day at work today

 

[sgw]

I will send a longer response when not posting from a phone. But until then, I was not resorting to name calling, nor putting forward any theory, my post is based on opinion. I will respond to your individual points later but is your first sentence meant to be as sarcastic as it sounds !

Not in the least. I don't see why it should be taken that way. Is honesty, politeness and respect for others so unfashionable around here that it has to be interpreted as sarcasm?

Have you seen most of the posts on the thread? There have been one or two attempts at reasonable argument but once challenged, they run off and only return to be dissruptive. Looking forward to hearing how suggesting that someones views are immature, paranoid and bigoted, is not name calling. Even worse...you suggested that I supported the Labour Party. :x

 

[red_riviera]

If housing benefit is such a drain, then the answer is simple, build more houses and bring the house prices down ...

Interesting point... but who will pay for the new houses? And who will lend them the money if the aim is to devalue property?

 

[silverclaws]

And that is the problem, no one it seems wants devaluation, but for the greater good, it just might be necessary.

As to the money from the sale of council houses, councils were prevented by government from rebuilding it's social housing stock, that money from the sales was held in a seperate account where it couldn't even be used for other purposes. I wonder if that money is still there, or has been purloined for other purposes.

If one as to draw on places like Danmark, Sweden and other parts of North Europe, one would notice there is not the constant fascination with house prices as in the UK, why is that, well, perhaps because house prices in the UK are ludricously high and for what, for our housing standards is positively stone age in comparison to much of Europe and definately Scandinavian. The scandinavian part of my family are simply appalled at the way I live and more so when they hear what I pay for it.

But then look at the political systems in such countries, a far cry from here.

 

[dbmtb]

If one as to draw on places like Danmark, Sweden and other parts of North Europe, one would notice there is not the constant fascination with house prices as in the UK, why is that, well, perhaps because house prices in the UK are ludricously high and for what, for our housing standards is positively stone age in comparison to much of Europe and definately Scandinavian. The scandinavian part of my family are simply appalled at the way I live and more so when they hear what I pay for it.

But then look at the political systems in such countries, a far cry from here.

While there's some truth in this, I think you're painting a far too rosy picture of the situation in my part of the world.

Yes - housing is of a better general standard.
No - we are not quite so prone to the fluctuations of a completely free property market.
Yes - rented accomodation built before 1977 (need to check that date) has legislation to protect the tenant in ways you would only dream about.

It's difficult to buy property as an investment object for example - most house purchases are accompanied with an obligation that you actually live there.
There are incentives to bring your home in line with green initiatives - for example we're getting solar heating installed shortly on the back of a cash back government incentive which keeps contractors busy.
There are mechanisms in place to protect home owners should they find themselves unemployed.

BUT: current government is busy doing exactly what your government is doing - and cutting costs left right and centre, while at the same time undermining what was otherwise one of the most stable housing markets in Europe and thereby the economy.
Like in the UK money has been chucked at education that maybe should have been invested elsewhere.
MPs voted themselves a payrise when everyone else has been asked to take cuts and public sector job cuts are rife.

Denmark is still a great place to live. I'm not so sure that will be true five years from now.

 

[sgw]

in most cases, its not a statement of how they should be conducted, but how they should NOT. An (albeit extreme) example.... lets just say that the students had decided to protest by gunning down anything that moved in the street. Most people (and I'm hoping to include you in this) would agree that this is so wrong, yet very few would suggest how it should be done. We see problems with what happens, but we dont have all the solutions. I personally, see no shame in this.

I didn't suggest anything about "shame". I simply pointed out that it would be incredibly stupid to define tactics for anything by basing them on the opinion of the opposition.

My extreme example of the Taliban advising UK military policy illustrated that I think.

Your own extreme example, is so extreme that it is irrelevant. (sounds like the film "If"). Protest neads to be proportionate.

you're well versed in the theory of protests? Ye jest, surely? Too much time methinks .. anyway, a theory is just that .. a theory, by definition unproven and not yet a factual law

Considering the amount of protests I have been on, I suppose I am well versed, yes.

Starting with anti Vietnam War protests, through womens rights, the Birmingham Six, gay rights, Trident, the Poll Tax, Iraq war, anti BNP/EDL with countless others in between. Mostly successful to varying extents.

Do you think we just go out, get our heads caved in and not develop new theories and tactics? We never used to get kettled for example, obviously we are currently developing tactics to counter this.

Info on current theories on effective demonstration and resisting and countering police aggression and violence here:-

https://www.earthfirst.org.uk/manchester/porder.htm

http://www.fitwatch.org.uk/

My time and how I spend it is btw, my own business, as yours is yours.

Of course a theory is just that. As I said, I am not aware of any theory of protesting that advocates having a bit of a march and a sing song while corralled by the police, then going home to quietly (and hopefully) await results. Only the government and it's supporters would recommend that.

But at least it will amuse my grandchildren.

I thought you wanted to keep it sensible, devoid of any sniping or sarcasm ... unless of course there professional students of demo theories too

I hardly think that constitutes sniping or sarcasm when taken in the context of this thread. I can't be bothered to tot up the aggressive sniping or sarcasm aimed my way in the course of this thread, but it's there for the record.

My grandchildren who naturally see Granddad as a old man with an old mans attitudes and opinions will obviously find it hilarious to know that others could describe me as immature and reminiscent of their 20yr old cousin. It amused and flattered me anyway. Absolutely no sniping or sarcasm.

touched a nerve there fella, as an ADHD sufferer, I physically cant cope with reading long statements and the comprehension of it all becomes muddled. Ive spent an age pulling your post to bits so that I can make sense of it. The short, snappy responses sometimes lose the emotion, but I can follow the text and its jist more easily. its why I dont read books. Are you saying my type should be precluded from enjoying or contributing to such a thread?

While I sympathise with any difficulties your ADHD causes you, you can't seriously be suggesting that all posts and comments should be tailored to your particular condition. If we followed that logic, we would need to post everything in Braille too to ensure that the blind aren't excluded.

We all have our burdens to carry and need to realise that in the outside world, while any individuals problems should be considered, respected and alleviated as much as possible, we all have to do the best we can within our own ability.

My comment was obviously aimed at those who constantly post mindless and deliberately destructive taunts and unsupported allegations. Nothing whatsoever suggests that my comment referred to anyone suffering from any restrictive or challenging condition.

In fact, without wanting to sound patronising, I think your own post puts many others to shame despite your difficulties.

Are you saying my type should be precluded from enjoying or contributing to such a thread?

I try not to reduce anyone to a type. I certainly wouldn't suggest that anyone suffering from ADHD was mearly a type. Like the rest of us, they are individuals with their own needs and characteristics.

As I said above, I have spent almost half a century fighting against discrimination of any sort, of course I wouldn't want anybody to feel excluded.

in case youre wondering, its a bit of a quiet day at work today

As above, Your time and how you spend it is your own business, as mine is mine.

Without any intent to patronise or be sarcastic, I have tried to space this out to make it easier to read, hope it helps.

 

[sgw]

Like in the UK money has been chucked at education that maybe should have been invested elsewhere.

Education spending (% of GDP) (most recent) by country:-

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/edu_edu_spe-education-spending-of-gdp

UK at =46th in the world with 5.3%, Denmark at 8th with 8.5%.

Chucked at education...invested elswhere.!

imo, the education of our children is the greatest investment any civilised society can make.

Perhaps thats why Cuba tops the table with 18.7%.

 

[gibbleking]

yup...lovely place cuba...the locals like it so much they die trying to leave....

 

[Tad]

Perhaps thats why Cuba tops the table with 18.7%.

But 18.7% of the best part of bugger all isn't very much to spend on education per capita by a long way.

Typical Stalinist propoganda, "bootlace production is up 100% on the same time last year". If you only made 1 bootlace last year then a 100% increase isn't a great improvement now is it?