Frame failure experiences

[greencat]

First up, very surprised about a 4T failing, but weren't they more in the lightweight department and like you mention pulling a trailer. It would perhaps be like putting one of those child seats that clamp on the seat-tube on a thin walled frame?

There's a few things going on, but yes when Ti fails you feel very let down. Owners who buy from new and a failure occurs outside the warranty must be utterly miffed - in part due to the high initial expense, the myths like you say around Ti, and then to add insult to injury the availability and cost of any repair if possible.

Now what I don't believe is that "a significant number" fail. I would be fairly certain the numbers are comparatively low. What tends to happen is when they do fail they will get splashed around the web in "shock" "horror" "didn't expect that". The umpteen cracked steel or AL frames mostly get dumped with little press or fuss (of course a few exceptions).

On the MTB side there was a period in the early / mid-90s of practically everyone needing to have a top model race bike in Ti flavour in their catalogues; Wheeler, KHS, Mongoose, Parkpre, Diamond Back, Sunn, Orange, Lapierre, Gazelle, Kona, Raleigh, Crescent, etc. etc. etc. Some got it right, some got it wrong. Have in mind too many more budget Ti frames were produced overseas in Asia or former Eastern Soviet block. I'm not saying that means they are all bad, far from it. The ones that have survived up till now will probably survive in the future with some respect.

It is fairly rare to read about say a Dean or similar produced by Sandvik USA failing. Same with Lynskey, Serrota and Morati.

Probably worth saying the trailer was attached to bunch of steel and aluminium frames without incident...(and the 4T failed after about 2 years of ownership, and pulling a trailer no more than a dozen times - again don't know for sure that was what caused it, but perhaps - and it never pulled a trailer again after the first weld, and then failed again elsewhere afterwards).

My guess is there are lot fewer titanium frames out there. Maybe less than a few % of overall sales? I also suspect most are not ridden as daily drivers either. Unless one of us can provide data on relative % of frame types failing it's hard to say. Outside of crashes, frame failures are rare for any material.

Worth saying, I did also have a Sunn Morati which came to me with a failed v-brake fixing (the area where the spring locates weld had failed - and I had that done too).

 

[bikeworkshop]

I've definitely seen more broken ti than I should have, and I've examined hundreds of broken frames.

As always, failure of the cheaper models is less surprising.

3 of my most used bikes are titanium though
(owned 20/30 years, well used)
and although i'd like them to last forever
(or my demise whichever is sooner)
I don't fool myself that
"Failure is not an option"

of course people might pay the premium for ti because they are going to get used hard, so there's always an element of self- selection

 

[MattiThundrrr]

Is it not supposed to be "aluminum"?

Was originally called aluminum, later changed to aluminium. One certain rebellious country, and their little buddy next door continue to resist the indecision

 

[joglo]

not my fault and not done by me



although it's a Univega Boralyn Frame, known for something like this (not my picture)


the damage above was happening according to the former owner by accident, when the bike crashed in a wooden area and was smashed again a massive root of an fallen tree.
I've bought it for little money to check the size...

 

[bikeworkshop]

Ti style tube failure

 

[Woz]

That's a pretty big but a safe failure; at least it was at the rear end, must have creaked / moaned prior, and did not feel right before retiring it.

 

[Imlach]

That's a pretty big but a safe failure; at least it was at the rear end, must have creaked / moaned prior, and did not feel right before retiring it.

Depends on whether or not the rider remembered to wd40 the hinges before popping on the lycra

 

[Canuk]

View attachment 888868
Ti style tube failure

That looks absolutely deadly....

 

[legrandefromage]

6 months at the workshop in 2010 it was:

Titanium track bike being used as a commuter - spiral cracks along the seat and head tubes

Carbon road bike fell against a lamp post - top tube split right round like an egg

Recall for most of that year's Specialized full suspension - shock mounts shearing off

Most common was YouTube failures - people trying to emulate videos, pretty much destroying their Konas yet expecting warranty replacements

Historically, the early burly 7005 aluminum frames all suffered the same issues: the forging process didn't get rid of the granular structures in the aluminium tubing. This led to multiple failures at the head tubes, especially when headset cups were not always the exact size or the tubes prepared in the right way. This left many cheap to expensive frames failing, some even simply going pop in front of the owner at a retrobike meeting! Manitou being the most infamous but most early Fisher would have the familiar 'lighting strike' crack in the head tube as it followed the grain structure

Welding has been discussed so many times - the most important part being the weld penetration. A lot of arguments then ensued about the look of a weld, missing the point entirely that as as long as the weld has been done correctly, looks are not as important. With aluminium, the structure changes with the type of material. 7000 series has different properties to 6000 and needs to be treated accordingly. When you weld aluminum, you have the tubing of one type which is then joined buy a rod of a completely different type of material but once through the stress of the welding process, ends up as near to the original tubing characteristics as possible

Get that wrong and you'll have your joints failing like a 3am rollup

The same 'Olympic' frame builder that taught me all the above (which I've no doubt got wrong) also explained that titanium had similar issues with the heat and stresses of the welding process changing the physical structure at the joins. So the welding had to be done to strict proven methods and standards

If I also remember correctly, decent welds for all materials can often be stronger than the tubeset

Back to frame failures - exotic American frames imported into the damp UK often rotted from the inside out, many shown on this forum

And don't rely on those expensive brand names being micron accurate for their headset cups - they are not!

Overlong forks ripping headtubes off - horrible!

Front end collisions, have seen many a decent frame ended like that..

 

[novocaine]

6 months at the workshop in 2010 it was:

Titanium track bike being used as a commuter - spiral cracks along the seat and head tubes

Carbon road bike fell against a lamp post - top tube split right round like an egg

Recall for most of that year's Specialized full suspension - shock mounts shearing off

Most common was YouTube failures - people trying to emulate videos, pretty much destroying their Konas yet expecting warranty replacements

Historically, the early burly 7005 aluminum frames all suffered the same issues: the forging process didn't get rid of the granular structures in the aluminium tubing. This led to multiple failures at the head tubes, especially when headset cups were not always the exact size or the tubes prepared in the right way. This left many cheap to expensive frames failing, some even simply going pop in front of the owner at a retrobike meeting! Manitou being the most infamous but most early Fisher would have the familiar 'lighting strike' crack in the head tube as it followed the grain structure

Welding has been discussed so many times - the most important part being the weld penetration. A lot of arguments then ensued about the look of a weld, missing the point entirely that as as long as the weld has been done correctly, looks are not as important. With aluminium, the structure changes with the type of material. 7000 series has different properties to 6000 and needs to be treated accordingly. When you weld aluminum, you have the tubing of one type which is then joined buy a rod of a completely different type of material but once through the stress of the welding process, ends up as near to the original tubing characteristics as possible

Get that wrong and you'll have your joints failing like a 3am rollup

The same 'Olympic' frame builder that taught me all the above (which I've no doubt got wrong) also explained that titanium had similar issues with the heat and stresses of the welding process changing the physical structure at the joins. So the welding had to be done to strict proven methods and standards

If I also remember correctly, decent welds for all materials can often be stronger than the tubeset

Back to frame failures - exotic American frames imported into the damp UK often rotted from the inside out, many shown on this forum

And don't rely on those expensive brand names being micron accurate for their headset cups - they are not!

Overlong forks ripping headtubes off - horrible!

Front end collisions, have seen many a decent frame ended like that..

They are quite correct, the weld is often considerably stronger than the surrounding material. a weld rarely fails, what fails the substrate around it, normally right at the edge of the bead. this is partially due to a massive change in the grain structure of the material due to heat stress and also due to stress risers along the bead edge. aluminium and Ti are both known for this, it's normalised after welding by heating and cooling cycles. no such requirement in steel, but often what happens then is the bond isn't full at the edge of the bead and that creates a failure point.

We used to do pen tests on welds (as well as tensile tests). cut through the weld, polish and then pickle. the number of welds you'd get in with the "stack of dimes" look where the weld only penetrated 1/2 the substrate was enlightening. I'm well out of practice these days, but when I do weld (recently built a new office chair), I go with functional welds over pretty welds, and I know they must be full penetration because of the holes I blow (not really, you can normally see the penetration from the backside where you can also see the heat soak).