do people begrudge other people earning a living these days?
- Thread starter jonnyboy666
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You can't beat that logic.Personally speaking, I don't whine about the cost of jobs done by decent mechanics, although I do ask what it's liable to cost up front, and I'll happily point out that if cost is > €threshold, it's not worth it / I can't afford it. That's not taking the piss, and not "you must do it at under this price", more "if you can't do it under this price, fair enough, but I can't afford to do it if it's more"
I do most of my bicycle work myself, and almost all of my car and motorcycle servicing. However, there are times where I either don't have the tools, or the time, or the inclination, to do it myself - at which point it's happily off to the local specialist.
Case in point was #1 son's bike, which was having some trouble shifting on the rings. Couldn't nail the problem myself, and I'm pretty good with derailleur adjustments. Took it down to mechanic at LBS, he nailed it in 15 seconds flat, gave me a "short term" fix and charged me next to nothing anyway on the grounds that I give him loads of free advertising and always buy bits from him even if I'm doing the job myself.
It's a two way street. The mechanic has a duty to do good work without financially raping the customer, the customer, quite simply, has to "not be an arsehole".
I do most of my bicycle work myself, and almost all of my car and motorcycle servicing. However, there are times where I either don't have the tools, or the time, or the inclination, to do it myself - at which point it's happily off to the local specialist.
Case in point was #1 son's bike, which was having some trouble shifting on the rings. Couldn't nail the problem myself, and I'm pretty good with derailleur adjustments. Took it down to mechanic at LBS, he nailed it in 15 seconds flat, gave me a "short term" fix and charged me next to nothing anyway on the grounds that I give him loads of free advertising and always buy bits from him even if I'm doing the job myself.
It's a two way street. The mechanic has a duty to do good work without financially raping the customer, the customer, quite simply, has to "not be an arsehole".
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That would be even less fair! Argument is completely flawed and just leaves everyone thinking that they are being screwed over.
And frankly why reward people for being aggressive? No thanks. Better to work the other way and be kinder to the people who don't ask for discounts as they are the ones you really want to keep coming back.
greencat":tlphb2t8 said:
That would be even less fair! Argument is completely flawed and just leaves everyone thinking that they are being screwed over.
And frankly why reward people for being aggressive? No thanks. Better to work the other way and be kinder to the people who don't ask for discounts as they are the ones you really want to keep coming back.
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this exactly, i look after and discount to my regular customers who are simply just good people, who ask for help and appreciate it when given, who's first port of call is us not the internet, this morning for example i trued up a wheel for a customer for free while he waited for no other reason than he's a good chap, the occasional buyer is not always a good customer, they only pop in to buy a tube or whatever when the internet can't supply them quick enough and they do actually HAVE to go to a shop because they need it now, while i appreciate anyone who puts money in the till the middle level customers are the ones that pay my wages, the ones that are into cycling a bit and regular but not so far into it that they are on forums and scanning eBay and crc for deals, the customers who know they want a pump but don't know which pump to buy and need advice, these are my good customers.
dbmtb":1ztob4p6 said:
this exactly, i look after and discount to my regular customers who are simply just good people, who ask for help and appreciate it when given, who's first port of call is us not the internet, this morning for example i trued up a wheel for a customer for free while he waited for no other reason than he's a good chap, the occasional buyer is not always a good customer, they only pop in to buy a tube or whatever when the internet can't supply them quick enough and they do actually HAVE to go to a shop because they need it now, while i appreciate anyone who puts money in the till the middle level customers are the ones that pay my wages, the ones that are into cycling a bit and regular but not so far into it that they are on forums and scanning eBay and crc for deals, the customers who know they want a pump but don't know which pump to buy and need advice, these are my good customers.
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One of my good customers has a saying...
"80% of your turnover comes from 20% of your customers". And he's right. You can afford to let the price-fixated casual customer go.
This is why cycling Internet discussions are full of "experts" complaining about the way XXX store treated them. If you come in with a BRAND X BOUGHT DIRECT FROM MANUFACTURER or POST ORDER, then it's signalling to the retail store that you no longer think you need them and that you are only going to be a small customer in the long run and that any bending over backwards is best left for the customers they think they can get back on board. They think you're lost to them anyway.
One of my good customers has a saying...
"80% of your turnover comes from 20% of your customers". And he's right. You can afford to let the price-fixated casual customer go.
This is why cycling Internet discussions are full of "experts" complaining about the way XXX store treated them. If you come in with a BRAND X BOUGHT DIRECT FROM MANUFACTURER or POST ORDER, then it's signalling to the retail store that you no longer think you need them and that you are only going to be a small customer in the long run and that any bending over backwards is best left for the customers they think they can get back on board. They think you're lost to them anyway.
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I think the trade has to accept that internet shopping is the way some people buy their bikes, and in many respects why wouldn't you; wider choice, excellent pricing, better value for money with the likes of Canyon and Rose. If you resent every person that did not buy a bike from their LBS.. then you'd better look around this web site.
My LBS has just closed, the owner has retired as the lease came up on the shop, no one wanted to buy the business as a going concern, so it has closed. However, the manager has taken the entire contents of the workshop and will be opening up as a service and repair centre in the next couple of weeks, "it's the only thing people can't get from the internet" was what he said to me. We also spoke about Jon's original point of poor quality bikes being presented for repairs that are simply uneconomic, his attitude is that he would do his best for the customer, but if the bike is too poor to be worth repairing then he will politely tell the customer that, if they never come back, well, that's the risk you take, but you can't polish a turd.
dbmtb":1nqya5v9 said:
I think the trade has to accept that internet shopping is the way some people buy their bikes, and in many respects why wouldn't you; wider choice, excellent pricing, better value for money with the likes of Canyon and Rose. If you resent every person that did not buy a bike from their LBS.. then you'd better look around this web site.
My LBS has just closed, the owner has retired as the lease came up on the shop, no one wanted to buy the business as a going concern, so it has closed. However, the manager has taken the entire contents of the workshop and will be opening up as a service and repair centre in the next couple of weeks, "it's the only thing people can't get from the internet" was what he said to me. We also spoke about Jon's original point of poor quality bikes being presented for repairs that are simply uneconomic, his attitude is that he would do his best for the customer, but if the bike is too poor to be worth repairing then he will politely tell the customer that, if they never come back, well, that's the risk you take, but you can't polish a turd.
You should see some of the stuff I read on Danish forums about Canyon customer service and suspension parts unavailability. Why WOULD you go there?
Resentment is way too strong a word - and yes - I expect few users of Retrobike to buy bikes from their LBS.
The reason I keep revisiting this place when I have time is because it is one of the few remaining bastions of people who actually know what they are talking about. Postal order is fine for the punter who is self-sufficient and who can blame them? But the customer who is NOT self-sufficient is saving very little by going down that path. I do loads of stuff that is not strictly speaking warranty for free on the bikes I sell. Would you get that on a post order bike? No. Anything under about £1500 you quickly lose the saving in workshop bills if you can't do it yourself. If someone buys a full-suspension bike from me I'll usually offer the first oil change for price of parts unless they got the bike as a closeout and the margin was negligible.
Fact is few people can see beyond basic specs lists (and see where the corners got cut) and price. Never could, never will. None of this is a surprise and it predates the Internet.
But that's not what this thread is really about.
Resentment is way too strong a word - and yes - I expect few users of Retrobike to buy bikes from their LBS.
The reason I keep revisiting this place when I have time is because it is one of the few remaining bastions of people who actually know what they are talking about. Postal order is fine for the punter who is self-sufficient and who can blame them? But the customer who is NOT self-sufficient is saving very little by going down that path. I do loads of stuff that is not strictly speaking warranty for free on the bikes I sell. Would you get that on a post order bike? No. Anything under about £1500 you quickly lose the saving in workshop bills if you can't do it yourself. If someone buys a full-suspension bike from me I'll usually offer the first oil change for price of parts unless they got the bike as a closeout and the margin was negligible.
Fact is few people can see beyond basic specs lists (and see where the corners got cut) and price. Never could, never will. None of this is a surprise and it predates the Internet.
But that's not what this thread is really about.
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One thing people have to remember when people moan about bike shop hourly rates is many, probably the majority earn 6.50 to 10 an hour and that is for high skilled technical and scientific jobs as well as till pinger and shelf stackers. That is for their time, their skills. That's why many begrudge paying bike shops labour charges over what they earn.
Give an all in price and don't even bother to quote 'labour charges'.
One thing people have to remember when people moan about bike shop hourly rates is many, probably the majority earn 6.50 to 10 an hour and that is for high skilled technical and scientific jobs as well as till pinger and shelf stackers. That is for their time, their skills. That's why many begrudge paying bike shops labour charges over what they earn.
Give an all in price and don't even bother to quote 'labour charges'.
If that's the case then the majority are also forgetting to factor in what the employer also has to pay in state contributions, tax on profits, rent, utility bills, tool wear and tear - all the things that their own employers also have to pay so that they can have a job too. They also forget what their own employers also have to earn on the work that they do. And forgive me, but the optimist in me refuses to believe that most people are that blinkered.
When it comes to it, it's down to people thinking it's unskilled labour and should be cheap accordingly. Which is just plain ignorant (also in the Yorkshire sense).
I don't mind out helping people who are hard up - but when people show up in a fancy motor, with £3000 bikes bought online, then my heart has some difficulty doing much bleeding.
When it comes to it, it's down to people thinking it's unskilled labour and should be cheap accordingly. Which is just plain ignorant (also in the Yorkshire sense).
I don't mind out helping people who are hard up - but when people show up in a fancy motor, with £3000 bikes bought online, then my heart has some difficulty doing much bleeding.
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3 grand bikes and expensive cards are a complete different buisiness market to BSO and entry level bikes.
These are not the general public earling less than a tenner an hour.
I was talking mentioning labour charges, I'm not on about profit margins on components and the work.
Hence NEVER quote labour charges or hourly rates. Just say what it will cost, make an estimate and try do it quicker than that to improve your profit and cover the tools and money outlays, constant insurance etc. People don't want to here that you earn more at £20 and hour than they do. Yes people are that simple.
I've had many a rant that people never take into consideration the overheads, it's the same reason food and drink costs a lot in cafe's compared to buying the food and making it yourself with your own tools. Also why 'your mate' or can do it cheaper as they have the tools and the skills but do it in their own time when not at work.
or
'portable bike repairs' as they just need to cover insurances and they may even declare it all to the tax man.
But then it's the same in any service industry I guess.
By the way I have nothing against making a living, just see it from the customer eyes sometimes.
I depends which end of the market you go for, I doubt you can target both properly at the same time.
3 grand bikes and expensive cards are a complete different buisiness market to BSO and entry level bikes.
These are not the general public earling less than a tenner an hour.
I was talking mentioning labour charges, I'm not on about profit margins on components and the work.
Hence NEVER quote labour charges or hourly rates. Just say what it will cost, make an estimate and try do it quicker than that to improve your profit and cover the tools and money outlays, constant insurance etc. People don't want to here that you earn more at £20 and hour than they do. Yes people are that simple.
I've had many a rant that people never take into consideration the overheads, it's the same reason food and drink costs a lot in cafe's compared to buying the food and making it yourself with your own tools. Also why 'your mate' or can do it cheaper as they have the tools and the skills but do it in their own time when not at work.
or
'portable bike repairs' as they just need to cover insurances and they may even declare it all to the tax man.
But then it's the same in any service industry I guess.
By the way I have nothing against making a living, just see it from the customer eyes sometimes.
I depends which end of the market you go for, I doubt you can target both properly at the same time.
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