Ukraine and the wisdom of the RB crowd

[Raging_Bulls]

In general the situation in Ukraine can be depicted very easy. You have the east and you have the west. The east speaks Russian, a lot of people think Soviet. The west speaks Ukrainian, thinks Ukrainian and feels very European. Both hardly ever agree. In the middle is a band of regions which are a bit unclear and unsure.

Hmm ... 2 regions with different languages and different political views, who don't ever agree. And a neutral zone in the middle. Where have I heard that before?

Basically it's like Belgium, but with Kalashnikovs.

 

[daugs]

There was a line from the Film 'Enemy at the Gate' on Film 4 last night about the seige of Stalingrad. One Russian was musing why the Germans kept sending foot soldiers to their certain death but then he said it must be like our relationship with the Ukranians, implying that they're not important or valued. An attitude like that between the Russians and Ukranians could be part of the problem, deep seated and historical.

At the time of WW2 though what we call West Ukraine was still Poland....

When I was in Moscow I was working with 2 Poles as well as a lot of Russians (plus other expats, US, Canadian etc). This was pre Christmas 1994 and the discussion turned to the 50th Anniversary of the end of WW2 the following year. One of the Russians asked what was being done in Poland to celebrate Poland being freed by the Russians in 1945 to which one of the Poles replied "Given it took you nearly 50 years to go home I would hardly call it a celebration". Suddenly an open plan office of 30 people was very quiet and all the young Russians looked very uncomfortable.

What you also have to appreciate is that even the Russians are not homologous, when I was in Siberia there was deep mistrust of the Moscowites and vica versa.

 

[M-Power]

Same old same old macho displays. Russians revert to their Viking type and the Americans act like the Head Master. The media just can't get enough of it and always do their best to stir things up IMO. So is it the beginning of a new Cold War, energy prices hike, mass invasion of Ukraine, more bloodshed, more unrest in other Soviet states etc ?

I think only time will change things. Once the old school Russian guard passes away the new more Global thinking powers will accept their system has failed and is unsustainable. The Americans will be energy self sufficient soon and China and India will increasingly dominate the World league table of Super powers, maybe also with a South American alliance.

 

[daugs]

why would Russians change ? a lot of Russians like Putin and an autocratic leader

issue is that the deal which saw the Soviet Nuclear arsenal returned to Russia required Russia to sign up to recognition of Ukraine's statehood and independence and was, I believe, guaranteed by US (and UK) so if Russia breaks the agreement then action will be required by US and UK.....

 

[Midlife]

Anchluss is a word that springs to mind about the Crimea and Eastern Ukraine...... Especially as the Crimean leader has asked Russia for help.

Shaun

 

[highlandsflyer]

..their system has failed and is unsustainable.

This could be said of the USA quite reasonably.
Whatever happens long term I am optimistic. Russia has changed since the Cold War.

 

[Woz]

There was a line from the Film 'Enemy at the Gate' on Film 4 last night about the seige of Stalingrad. One Russian was musing why the Germans kept sending foot soldiers to their certain death but then he said it must be like our relationship with the Ukranians, implying that they're not important or valued. An attitude like that between the Russians and Ukranians could be part of the problem, deep seated and historical.

I worked and travelled to Kiev fairly regularly about 10 years ago. At that time there was a breath of fresh air
whispering in and the old shackles of communism were clearly subsiding. During my travels, I remarked to my
Ukrainian hosts that this was a beautiful impressive statue http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mother_Motherland,_Kiev .

I was referring to it more from a architecture / sculpture point of view, but my comments offended the
Ukrainian hosts - they couldn't see past the symbolic point and told me many Ukrainians had their
metals including cutlery confiscated to make the statue and it faces towards Moscow as a constant reminder.

Interesting times. As a whole I found the Ukrainains a very proud resourcefull friendly bunch. Nemirof vodka
and pork fat on bread. Mmmh.....

 

[M-Power]

There was a line from the Film 'Enemy at the Gate' on Film 4 last night about the seige of Stalingrad. One Russian was musing why the Germans kept sending foot soldiers to their certain death but then he said it must be like our relationship with the Ukranians, implying that they're not important or valued. An attitude like that between the Russians and Ukranians could be part of the problem, deep seated and historical.

I worked and travelled to Kiev fairly regularly about 10 years ago. At that time there was a breath of fresh air
whispering in and the old shackles of communism were clearly subsiding. During my travels, I remarked to my
Ukrainian hosts that this was a beautiful impressive statue http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mother_Motherland,_Kiev .

I was referring to it more from a architecture / sculpture point of view, but my comments offended the
Ukrainian hosts - they couldn't see past the symbolic point and told me many Ukrainians had their
metals including cutlery confiscated to make the statue and it faces towards Moscow as a constant reminder.

Interesting times. As a whole I found the Ukrainains a very proud resourcefull friendly bunch. Nemirof vodka
and pork fat on bread. Mmmh.....

This conflict is a strong indicator of how the future of many conflicts will pan out IMO. Most Western democracies are reducing their combat manpower, technology is taking over yet there is still the spectre of aggressive superpower mass invasion.

Nice insight into Ukrainian culture. We take so much for granted in the UK with freedom of speech, civil liberties and a generous welfare state compared to most other countries etc

 

[daugs]

We take so much for granted in the UK with freedom of speech, civil liberties and a generous welfare state compared to most other countries etc

maybe Alex Salmond should look at the Russians before he starts spouting about bullying from Westminster

 

[Ivo]

The new developments show a serious lack of understanding of current Ukraine from the Kremlin. It's not 1995 anymore. The amount of people in Ukraine who really want to unite with Russia has immensely decreased. In '95 you could state that along linguistic lines, those speaking Russian would favour a union with Russia. But during the past 15 years a massive amount of people see themselves as Russian speaking Ukrainians. They clearly choose for Ukraine. In fact only in the Sevastopol area the real Soviet thinking people are a serious majority. In some other parts of Crimea there are a lot o them as in some eastern cities. But the whole center party of the country clearly choose for Ukraine. I wouldn't be surprised if the amount of people with a strong pro-Russian stance now diminished to 10%.