Reverse rear mech, advice

[utahdog2003]

but the standard wasn't agreed by anyone based on merit, it was just a standard because nobody did it different.

It's only by challenging the accepted norm that new ideas break through.

I agree that sometimes it's just change for change sake,but most of the time there is sound reasoning behind it.

If it was that much better it would be dominant in the market by now. It is not. :?

 

[amedias]

I never said it was better

I said both have their merits.

I actually believe that technically and mechanically they are about even, in which case with no clear advantage either way, and the difficulty humans seem to have with overcoming a previously learnt way of doing things, it's natural that uptake would be poor/slow as there's no reason to change.


If you had never ridden a bike with gears before then I bet you would actually find a convention where both shifters operate in the same direction to be a lot more natural than having it work one way on one side and one way on the other.

 

[hamster]

I'm not convinced on the technical argument. On conventional mechs then chain tension assists the spring to up-shift and you can use hand strength to make a down-shift. Even if the spring weakens the thing will still work.

With rapid rise, the spring gives the down-shift and hand pressure gives an up-shift, assisted by chain tension. That does give a lighter shift. But you are wholly dependent on that spring.

I have never found myself so limp-wristed that upshifts were not possible with conventional mechs, nor have I ever heard anyone say that they found it impossible to shift gears for lack of hand strength, with the exception of children under 8.

So it's a solution chasing a problem that barely exists IMO.

 

[utahdog2003]

I'm not convinced on the technical argument. On conventional mechs then chain tension assists the spring to up-shift and you can use hand strength to make a down-shift. Even if the spring weakens the thing will still work.

With rapid rise, the spring gives the down-shift and hand pressure gives an up-shift, assisted by chain tension. That does give a lighter shift. But you are wholly dependent on that spring.

I have never found myself so limp-wristed that upshifts were not possible with conventional mechs, nor have I ever heard anyone say that they found it impossible to shift gears for lack of hand strength, with the exception of children under 8.

So it's a solution chasing a problem that barely exists IMO.

Exactly. I want to buy you a Big Mac.

 

[amedias]

I dunno, it's for precisely that reason that my GF uses grip shift, she can't get on with the thumb force needed to shift up the block with anything but brand new cables and a low-load scenario.

Whereas the only reason I prefer RR, is I prefer being able to drop down the block several cogs at a time with a big does of thumb. I only ever find myself going up the block one gear at a time so RR suits me better.

horses for course and all that.

It really is a personal thing. I'm not (and I don't think Shimano ever really were) suggesting that one way is better, if they really thought that they would have abandoned high-normal mechs altogether and forced the change upon the consumer. Just that they both have the plus points.

Lets forget for a moment the technical arguments because it really is a very marginal and almost theoretical problem we are discussing, the reliance on a mech spring is universal to all designs to a degree.

On a pure usability approach, if you had not already learned one way, it would make more sense to have the shifter on both sides operate in the same way, if you spend much time instructing new riders you'll know what I mean, they find it quite difficult to grasp the idea of 'left shifter use your thumb for a harder gear, but on the right shifter it's your finger', It's a lot easier to say 'thumb for harder/faster, finger for easier/slower', especially if they are not yet comfortable with the relationship between cog sizes and how they affect the gearing.

I think anything that has the potential to make cycling more accessible and easier for the less technical rider should be welcomed, and until push button hydraulic/pneumatic/electronic shifting become mainstream low-normal mechs are a good solution, I think that might be why shimano pushed RR in the nexave/touring city bike market.

FWIW - I'm not an RR evangelist, I still use high-normal mechs on most of my bikes I just think that *most* of the animosity towards RR is due to learned behaviour.

tell me which is the more frequent complaint?

1> I hate this RR mech, it's all differenty!

2> I hate this RR mech, it's ultimate reliance on a strong parallelogram spring and occasional reluctance to shift up the block really gets my goat!

 

[Charlieboy28]

have used both and can appreciate the merits of both, there have even been times when i have thought rapid rise makes so much more sense. My problem always came when using my reptilian brain in the cycling nirvana zen sone , I would forget i was using a RR mech and shift down when i wanted up and vice versa, which would spoil my cycling Nirvana Zen Zone. The bike should be intuitive and natural and do what you want without having to think about the controls. i reckon. RR meant i had to stay switched on and think before each shift, becuase all of my other bikes were conventional. it was the same when i rode a clown bike that turned left when you turned right.

it may just be me as i have problems with my left and right also though, i have to wiggle my right hand in the air and recite, I write with my right and whats left is my left to this very day.

gosh i waffle, it would have been fine i think if all my bikes were RR, but they werent so i got rid of the mech so i could go back to not thinking

 

[amedias]

it would have been fine i think if all my bikes were RR, but they werent so i got rid of the mech so i could go back to not thinking

exactly my point, it's hard to get used to because we all have high-normal style shifting ingrained into us.

 

[We_are_Stevo]

You forgot...

3> It looks funny :?

Personally, I like them - I have a RR XTR on my '97 Explosif but all my others are conventional and I have no problem going from one to the other;

It's no different to riding a pushbike, then a motorbike, then a car with a manual gearbox or an auto.

You don't hear people going 'Oh, I can't drive a car because I usually ride a bike, I just can't get used to the difference...'

 

[Splatter Paint]

Rapid Rise also has the advantage that people who are not converts don't ask to borrow your bike I got used to it so I could borrow my mate's Santa Cruz.

SP