Retro-modern fusion gravel build madness. The new Superb!

[M_Chavez]

Is there anything more painful for a bike wrencher than installing full guards?
The answer is "yes" - trying to make a French headset work!

Good news:
Narrow-wide chainring delivered from China in 10 days! Wow. Don't always get that even when the sender is in the UK. I've swapped the XD2s for a new set, as the 170 one is yet to be liberated from the stuck pedal.
The guards are going on, and the brakes will probably be fine...
My "spare parts" rear mech fits very well by the looks of it.
I've sorted the seatpost clamping issue by applying a bit of carbon gripper paste - the post is now rock solid even at 6nm torque.

Bad news:

Setback 1: I thought I had red anodized alloy bolts for the rear guard, but I couldn't find them, so I'll have to use golden ones. Hopefully, they'll get covered by mud soon enough so I won't be stopped by the fashion police.

Setback 2: I've tightened the headset, put on an old chain and took Frannie out for a short test ride down my street. Sans brakes, but when has that ever stopped people from riding bikes, right?
On hitting a road bump (at slow speed obviously!) the headset clicked and skipped up a thread! This has happened to me once while working on the bike, but I re-tightened the nuts with a headset wrench and concluded that it was just me forgetting to tighten it.
Nope - the headset is skipping up the threads. Feck.

The washers are a bit loose on the threads, but not nearly as loose as when I tried putting on a spare campy ISO headset.
So what the hell is wrong with Tange?
Thankfully, I've ordered M25 die and tap from China (Couldn't resist the temptation at about £15 delivered!). The die went on the fork with finger pressure, but was very tight - the steerer threads are definitely M25 and are in good enough condition.
The nuts went onto the M25 tap, but were a bit loose on it.
Just to give it a try, I've tried screwing the nuts onto an iso steerer...and with a bit of persuasion they went on!
So it's an ISO thread after all on the headset, albeit, it seems to be tighter than standard ISO. I was even able to torque these buggers up to preload the bearings. WTF!

The best news is that the steerer is not damaged and I am back to my plan of installing a threadless set-up. But it will take more time and frannying.

 

[velomaniac]

French headsets are not ISO. Steerer is 25mm not 25.4mm and turns per inch is, I think 25.2 not 24. The headset cups tend to be slightly wider internally so you need to use loose ball bearings not caged. I have a 60's Peugeot that has a lot of idiosyncrasies

Look up Sheldon Brown cribsheet on headsets and French bikes.

 

[M_Chavez]

@velomaniac
If only it was that easy pal.
If you've missed 2-3 pages of French headset discussions, the essence is:
- French crowns are either 27.0 (ISO), 26.4 (Same as JIS) or 26.5 (for practical purposes, same as JIS).
- Steerer is 25.0 instead of 25.4 but it's irrelevant for threaded headsets (as thread pitch is different) and solved with a shim with threadless.
- Threading is M25x1. This is different to the "common" M25x1.5 widely available in diy shops. In fact, finding an M25x1 nut is harder than finding a 25x1 tap & die. The only theoretical M25x1 pitch nuts can be obtained from vintage moped parts dealers (old Italian steering columns). £4 for the nut, £16 shipping from Italy.
Uk-supplied M25x1 motorbike nuts are not actually 25x1.
- Headtube cups are 30.2 (same as ISO). But some of the old ones were not as deep. Which means that you have to ream out the headtube to accept a deeper cup.
- Older French headsets were very low stack. Which means that modern Velo-orange reproductions are too tall for the nut threads to engage. As are some of the Campy offerings I believe.
- There's a hack described by Sheldon himself, where one can fit a threadless headset to a threaded steerer. All one needs is an M25x1 nut (see point above).

Since Frannie is from early 50s, I've got all the idiosyncrasies I could ever wish for. 26.4 crown, French thread and extra low stack.

The solution I am going to try implementing is to use a threadless EC30 cartridge headset with a split crown (works for both JIS and ISO crowns supposedly). I've got an M25x1 tap & die and all I need is a 4-mm thick washer with a 24mm hole in it.
The sad reality is that in this day & age of being able to buy anything you want with just one click of a mouse, there's nobody selling a little piece of metal with a 24mm hole in it. Incredible.
The only option I found were stainless steel washers. But I suspect that tapping stainless steel is going to be a job from hell. But I'm too deep down the rabbit hole to do anything about it. Some elbow grease and plenty of KY jelly (to facilitate the tap cutting the steel obviously) should get me through it.

Nah,. just kidding about KY jelly. Proper cutting liquid (cough WD40 cough) is required.

 

[Woz]

Yep, that Tange Levin headset sounds like it was not French threaded. Does it have any engraving on it?

This seems to indicate that it should be clearly marked on the lock-nut and upper cup.

Just tried a Tange Falcon ISO headset (cheaper, no dimension engravings) on a late 70s Motobecane French steerer, I see it "could work at a push" but there is too much slop really. The French headsets I have screw on pretty tight (threads need greasing) with no slop whatsoever. A quality French headset will have serrations in the lock-ring so it will never undo. Be aware that many French headsets may have been intended for old Solex or mobilettes - dimensionally they are same but only have a simple washer without a flat side or peg. You can barely start a French headset on a 1" steerer, but it binds after about half a turn.

 

[M_Chavez]

@Woz you still have that pug headset in a jam jar as a fallback option?

The Tange is a strange one, as it's extremely tight on an ISO steerer (but obviously an ISO job), and it's tight enough on a French steerer to make you think it was French until you hit a pothole. The campy ISO threads were way too loose when I tried them at first (although, if you remember, they fooled me into thinking the steerer was an ISO one).

 

[Woz]

@M_Chavez - I'm in the process of actually chucking some old French headset parts out. I was at the charity shop last week and bought some old bike and moped tat found in an toolbox - included was a cut-off steerer tube and lot's of different headset parts, washers and nuts. I think I could help you out. What do you need? Like a washer and an open lock-nut?

 

[M_Chavez]

With a bit of luck I'll have my threadless-ready home-made stainless nuts by the end of next week, but if not, a French nut should allow me to try the EC30 solution.

Alternatively, a spare top cup & nut, as I already have a working Tange bottom cup and a workable neco bottom cup.

A pal bought a koga-miyata proracer frame and it's a jis race & ISO cups, so my Tange headset will be the perfect fit for him,whileFrannie will probably end up with the neco EC30 jobbie.

 

[M_Chavez]

Well, this is becoming a tradition now - got wrong washers sent to me. Not even close to the spec of the ones I've ordered.

WTF.

 

[dirttorpedo]

I'm a bit daft when it comes to bars. I really like my Giant XR Connects with a light 5deg flare. Have them on my summer racer and the Bojack. Any other drop bars feel like a compromise.
I've briefly tried several retro bars and they just didn't work for me. Other modern bars are not as good either.

I am also a bit daft with my set-up - going for a smaller fame, short riser stem, etc. Works for me and I am happy spending hours on a bike like this. Even though I do get some funny looks now & again.

So yeah, I'm going to have 3 bikes with the same bars, stems, shifters, bar tape, cranks and pedals
Also same saddles on Bojack and Frannie. The summer bike doesn't have guards, so needs something a bit more waterproof (Brooks C17 - it seems to have longer rails than their leather options!).

Nothing wrong with using what works for you.

I was running a similar stem / adapter setup as you on my 91 Miyata, but didn't like the look and wanted to be able to get my bars higher. I picked up one of these. https://crustbikes.com/collections/stems/products/nitto-x-crust-ui-stem Not super attractive I admit. They make a more road inspired one as well, but it still has the same ugly bolt system.

If you are planning on going aheadset I suppose its a moot point though.

 

[M_Chavez]

On the topic of French frames, here's an interesting looking Frenchie.
What on Earth has happened to the seat tube?! Is it even safe to ride like this?

Classic vintage French road bike frame. D. Salmon. Daniel Salmon. 1990s. 56cm | eBay

Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for Classic vintage French road bike frame. D. Salmon. Daniel Salmon. 1990s. 56cm at the best online prices at eBay! Free delivery for many products.

www.ebay.co.uk

Thankfully, I already have a columbus-tubed summer bike frameset to build up next year, so I can find inner strength to resist buying another French bike.