Rapid Rise vs. Front Freewheel (or both?)
- Thread starter Retrorockit
- Start date
Retrorockit
Old School Hero
I went with gripshifters. As many gears either way as I need. No time to twiddle my thumbs in urban South Florida traffic ( statistically most unsafe place to ride in the US). The Saint and Hone Rapid Rise both require hard to find 10mm through axles. The Hone hubs can be found cheap due to the unpopularity of this. The Saint hubs require their own larger centerlock brake spline so avoid those. The Zee is 10/11 speed clutch derailleur era so no Rapid Rise there AFIK. Plenty of LX,XT,XTR stuff out there. Most of the road series, Nexave, Tourney, 105 had it also.
I avoid trigger shifters with these because of the limited downshifting due to the reverse pattern.
I've used SRAM Rocket and Attack Shimano compatible twisters. But the spring load/ ratchet load is backwards to the derailleur spring. They mostly work, but upshift when wet can be difficult. The Ebike was 3x8 and now is 1x8. The Shimano 8 speed RR Revoshifters work well. But don't have the knobby grips that SRAM has, so they can get slippery also. But not as hopeless as the SRAM. Some people have used LH shifters on the right to get proper cable pull. I have a few of these but haven't tried it yet. Both my bikes are form early 2k era when gripshifts and Rapid Rise were popular. I found more reasons to keep it than to switch. But now that 'm running the even more ancient, and controversial front freewheel on both bikes most of the advantages of RR are already there. Except for downshift when stopped. One bike is now 1x11, and getting them both shifting in the same direction may be the deciding factor to move away form RR. Nothing to do with RR itself. But 20 years of shifting a certain way is hard to unlearn.
I avoid trigger shifters with these because of the limited downshifting due to the reverse pattern.
I've used SRAM Rocket and Attack Shimano compatible twisters. But the spring load/ ratchet load is backwards to the derailleur spring. They mostly work, but upshift when wet can be difficult. The Ebike was 3x8 and now is 1x8. The Shimano 8 speed RR Revoshifters work well. But don't have the knobby grips that SRAM has, so they can get slippery also. But not as hopeless as the SRAM. Some people have used LH shifters on the right to get proper cable pull. I have a few of these but haven't tried it yet. Both my bikes are form early 2k era when gripshifts and Rapid Rise were popular. I found more reasons to keep it than to switch. But now that 'm running the even more ancient, and controversial front freewheel on both bikes most of the advantages of RR are already there. Except for downshift when stopped. One bike is now 1x11, and getting them both shifting in the same direction may be the deciding factor to move away form RR. Nothing to do with RR itself. But 20 years of shifting a certain way is hard to unlearn.
Retrorockit
Old School Hero
I tried the M9. It seems like they just built a longer derailleur hanger into the deraillaur itself. It was pretty far away from the small cogs. But it does go up to 52t.
You might look at the ZEE. There are 2 versions. The DH has the SS cage for 28t cassette. The FReeride is GS for 36t. But at MTBR there is a bike with the 28t cage on a 42t cassette. Chain length is critical. The only explanation I've heard is thht for full suspension DH bikes Shimano builds in a lot of extra derailleur capacity for chain growth due to suspension travel. Also modern SS is looking a lot like older GS, and newr GS is almost as long as older SGS. I have a Zee DH on the way. This may end up on the XC bike. I have a theory that Shimano 11s is the same cable ratio as the SRAM 1:1 stuff. So I'll try a vintage SRAM 8 speed 1/2 pipe twist shifter with modern 11s Shimano Zee derailleur. I'm at 40t cog on both bikes. For the 11s bike the SRAM NX Gripshift is working fine with Shimano already. I may stick with gripshifter but switch from Rapid Rise to my own front freewheel mods to shift with or w/o pedaling any time the bike is moving. Full range up or down.
But I do have some Saint axles on the way and a saint RR derailleur in hand. If i can get RR to work on 11s it may be XTR on the XC bike, and Saint axle mount on the Urban Ebike. The Saint really is designed for banging off of things.
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Retrorockit
Old School Hero
I've just ordered a Jtek Shiftmate 6 (UK bodging supplies from SJS Cycles). This converts cable travel between SRAM to Shimano 8-9 speed ratio. Most often used to run the wrong shifters. But by reversing the mismatch that means derailleurs too. I adds or subtract travel depending on which pulley diameter the cable goes into first. I might get to RR on 11s with Twist shifters after all. FFW of course.
Retrorockit
Old School Hero
I've got the Zee in hand, and it is compact. The cage is shorter than my XTR GS.
Weights
Saint M800 9s GS RR 370G. No clutch .
Zee M640 SS DH 270g Metal clutch lever for hard use.
XTR M960 9sGS RR 200g no clutch
Let's throw the Linkglide M5130 in here too. 360g. and 13t idlers making the shortish cage come out around GS length. Son of Saint.
Rumor has it that it IS 11s compatible, but made for CUES cassettes and shifters, which are not compatible due to different cog spacing....
So I can do both my bikes with modern clutch derailleurs, or both with high end Rapid Rise, dependent an a Saint 10mm through axle conversion for the Ebike. I think my flat prevention is good enough. But I would lose my locking QR skewers. Then there's the matter of an 11s Rapid Rise shifter for the XC bike. One misstep at a time..
Weights
Saint M800 9s GS RR 370G. No clutch .
Zee M640 SS DH 270g Metal clutch lever for hard use.
XTR M960 9sGS RR 200g no clutch
Let's throw the Linkglide M5130 in here too. 360g. and 13t idlers making the shortish cage come out around GS length. Son of Saint.
Rumor has it that it IS 11s compatible, but made for CUES cassettes and shifters, which are not compatible due to different cog spacing....
So I can do both my bikes with modern clutch derailleurs, or both with high end Rapid Rise, dependent an a Saint 10mm through axle conversion for the Ebike. I think my flat prevention is good enough. But I would lose my locking QR skewers. Then there's the matter of an 11s Rapid Rise shifter for the XC bike. One misstep at a time..
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Retrorockit
Old School Hero
I set up a dummy bike to test fit all the derailleurs I have.
The M9 is simply built for 46t and up to 52t cassettes. Heavy return spring and non adjustable "Stabilizer" aka clutch. Too big for me.
My Rapid Rise LX looks like it can go 40t with a longer B screw mod. But can I get it to shift an 11s backwards?????
The RR XTR is known good up to 40t. same question as above. Would be nice on the 11s XC bike.
The SS caged Zee can go on the 40t cassette, but the geometry is way off for the smaller cogs. The Freeride GS version is probably better. I might put the SS cage on one of those and see how that goes. I do like short cages on 26" urban bikes. But with Front freewheel you can pull them all up next to the frame as needed.
M5120- modern clutch type GS cage 10/ 11s derailleur. I'll see if I can retrofit it to 8-9 speed with SRAM shifters.
The M 5130 looks interesting. Nice rugged part and fits in the 40-43t range nicely. 13t idlers look serious. Shimano says only Linkglide compatible.
Others disagree. This would be nice for the Ebike if I abandon Rapid Rise.
Then there's the Saint. GS RR, 10mm through axle. I might make up a 10mm stub to go on a QR skewer just fit it up. I'd definitely like this on the Ebike. But getting to 10mm X 135mm through axle will take some doing. I seem to have my flat prevention at a point where roadside tire reapairs are a thing of the past. Axles are on the way. I have a 10x135 hub here......
As far as shifters go I have a huge pile of twist shifters. SRAM in 1:1 and 2:1 Shimano, RR and standard, Some LH twisters with various numbers of clicks also. All front derailleurs are Low Normal (Rapid Rise) so they pull backwards already. I'm waiting for the Jtek shifter ratio converter to arrive form UK.
I do have a Shimano 3020 derailleur 8s x 40t on the Eikee now. But it choked on the 11s chain when the XTR was OK with it. I think it's on the way out of the rotation..
The M9 is simply built for 46t and up to 52t cassettes. Heavy return spring and non adjustable "Stabilizer" aka clutch. Too big for me.
My Rapid Rise LX looks like it can go 40t with a longer B screw mod. But can I get it to shift an 11s backwards?????
The RR XTR is known good up to 40t. same question as above. Would be nice on the 11s XC bike.
The SS caged Zee can go on the 40t cassette, but the geometry is way off for the smaller cogs. The Freeride GS version is probably better. I might put the SS cage on one of those and see how that goes. I do like short cages on 26" urban bikes. But with Front freewheel you can pull them all up next to the frame as needed.
M5120- modern clutch type GS cage 10/ 11s derailleur. I'll see if I can retrofit it to 8-9 speed with SRAM shifters.
The M 5130 looks interesting. Nice rugged part and fits in the 40-43t range nicely. 13t idlers look serious. Shimano says only Linkglide compatible.
Others disagree. This would be nice for the Ebike if I abandon Rapid Rise.
Then there's the Saint. GS RR, 10mm through axle. I might make up a 10mm stub to go on a QR skewer just fit it up. I'd definitely like this on the Ebike. But getting to 10mm X 135mm through axle will take some doing. I seem to have my flat prevention at a point where roadside tire reapairs are a thing of the past. Axles are on the way. I have a 10x135 hub here......
As far as shifters go I have a huge pile of twist shifters. SRAM in 1:1 and 2:1 Shimano, RR and standard, Some LH twisters with various numbers of clicks also. All front derailleurs are Low Normal (Rapid Rise) so they pull backwards already. I'm waiting for the Jtek shifter ratio converter to arrive form UK.
I do have a Shimano 3020 derailleur 8s x 40t on the Eikee now. But it choked on the 11s chain when the XTR was OK with it. I think it's on the way out of the rotation..
Retrorockit
Old School Hero
The problem with the Zee is that I got the DH version thinking that it was the SS size, and the FR version was the GS cage. But they're both SS sized. The solution turns out to be that the SLX which is on the bike now has the same part# hanger extension as the FR Zee. This solves the problem.
http://www.peterverdone.com/the-zee-short-cage-problem/I do this sort of thing on purpose. It produces more info. than taking the easy way out. But for future reference just get the right one to start with.
Unless of course you have some 2x 7-8 retro XC bike with an 11-28 cassette. Then this should work with SRAM 1:1 gripshifters.. It seems the SS derailleur can take up to 30-31t capacity if chain length is closely tuned.
One thing I did learn is that the older derailleurs (and the Zee) had the guide pulley centered over the cage pivot. Newer ones have an offset there. This compensates for the cassette size as the chain is taken up. More take up moves the guide pulley further out as it goes. So chain length plays a bigger part in this than it used to. One like the SunraceM9 has a huge offset, and huge pulleys so this effect is quite large there. So a lot of the geometry for these larger cassettes is in the derailleur cage offset pivot, and not the linkages.
The cassettes are all about the same width they've always been. So the linkages aren't the issue.
http://www.peterverdone.com/the-zee-short-cage-problem/I do this sort of thing on purpose. It produces more info. than taking the easy way out. But for future reference just get the right one to start with.
Unless of course you have some 2x 7-8 retro XC bike with an 11-28 cassette. Then this should work with SRAM 1:1 gripshifters.. It seems the SS derailleur can take up to 30-31t capacity if chain length is closely tuned.
One thing I did learn is that the older derailleurs (and the Zee) had the guide pulley centered over the cage pivot. Newer ones have an offset there. This compensates for the cassette size as the chain is taken up. More take up moves the guide pulley further out as it goes. So chain length plays a bigger part in this than it used to. One like the SunraceM9 has a huge offset, and huge pulleys so this effect is quite large there. So a lot of the geometry for these larger cassettes is in the derailleur cage offset pivot, and not the linkages.
The cassettes are all about the same width they've always been. So the linkages aren't the issue.
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Retrorockit
Old School Hero
I'm still thinking about Rapid Rise for both my Bikes. I just ordered some old Saint M800/M801 SS caged derailleurs. One RR one standard.
These are the ones that are bolted on with a 10mm Thru Axle. No hangers to bend or break.
The XC bike will get an RR Shimano LX GS cage deraillleur. I'll try using a Shiftmate converter for that one.
One Saint SS will go to NYC with an ENO FFW setup for stress testing.
Maybe the Saint project deserves it's own thread?
These are the ones that are bolted on with a 10mm Thru Axle. No hangers to bend or break.
The XC bike will get an RR Shimano LX GS cage deraillleur. I'll try using a Shiftmate converter for that one.
One Saint SS will go to NYC with an ENO FFW setup for stress testing.
Maybe the Saint project deserves it's own thread?
Retrorockit
Old School Hero
Here's a quote from a Shimano engineer on the origins of Rapid Rise.
"We originally designed the reverse spring for the Nexave group to make shifting less complicated," Boehmke said. "But it worked so well we applied it to the '97 XTR group. Our racers (like Kirk Molday, Alison Dunlap and Dave Wiens) love it."
So it did come out of Touring /City bikes.
But it ended up in a lot of groupsets. Vintage Dual Control road levers are supposed to be optimized for RR, but some XT versions exist. I'm not sure what brakes they work with.
It came out so the shifters on 3x bikes would both work the same direction. But on 1x it allows downshifts when stopped, and multiple gear downshifts without pedaling. Good for close quarters riding or unexpected situations. You do have to pedal it into gear, either before or after stopping.
I blew up the Deore 3020 Acera derailleur on the Ebike (native support for 1x8 11-40t cassette) It didn't last a month. So I'm back to XTR Rapid Rise there.
Since it's a 2004 bike I'll mention some other upgrades I did at the same time. I used Jagwire Elite Link cable set, and ran 3/16" steel automotive hardline for the internal frame section to eliminate unsupported cable housing flapping around inside the frame. The prestretched Jagwire cables required almost no tuning to get the shifts right. So solid metal cable housing from end to end. The teflon liner from JW fits inside the brake tubing, 5mm brake housing cable ends fit over the cut ends. I've used this in external sections also, such as up suspension fork legs, and down the seat stays for HT bikes with cable disc brake conversions. It really helps the responsivness of the controls. You can really feel what the brakes are doing instead of feeling the cables flapping around. FWIW I'm getting modern braking performance out of Avid (not SRAM) BB7 brakes with metallic pads, and Shimano Icetech alloy core rotors.
"We originally designed the reverse spring for the Nexave group to make shifting less complicated," Boehmke said. "But it worked so well we applied it to the '97 XTR group. Our racers (like Kirk Molday, Alison Dunlap and Dave Wiens) love it."
So it did come out of Touring /City bikes.
But it ended up in a lot of groupsets. Vintage Dual Control road levers are supposed to be optimized for RR, but some XT versions exist. I'm not sure what brakes they work with.
It came out so the shifters on 3x bikes would both work the same direction. But on 1x it allows downshifts when stopped, and multiple gear downshifts without pedaling. Good for close quarters riding or unexpected situations. You do have to pedal it into gear, either before or after stopping.
I blew up the Deore 3020 Acera derailleur on the Ebike (native support for 1x8 11-40t cassette) It didn't last a month. So I'm back to XTR Rapid Rise there.
Since it's a 2004 bike I'll mention some other upgrades I did at the same time. I used Jagwire Elite Link cable set, and ran 3/16" steel automotive hardline for the internal frame section to eliminate unsupported cable housing flapping around inside the frame. The prestretched Jagwire cables required almost no tuning to get the shifts right. So solid metal cable housing from end to end. The teflon liner from JW fits inside the brake tubing, 5mm brake housing cable ends fit over the cut ends. I've used this in external sections also, such as up suspension fork legs, and down the seat stays for HT bikes with cable disc brake conversions. It really helps the responsivness of the controls. You can really feel what the brakes are doing instead of feeling the cables flapping around. FWIW I'm getting modern braking performance out of Avid (not SRAM) BB7 brakes with metallic pads, and Shimano Icetech alloy core rotors.
Retrorockit
Old School Hero
Shimano FREESHIFT Shift without pedaling..........
https://bike.shimano.com/en-EU/technologies/component/details/steps/free-shift.html
What next ? Is Rapid Rise coming back too? Here's some text from them on their XTR shifters
MULTI RELEASE
"Previous shifting systems shifted faster in one direction than the other. Choosing top normal or low normal always meant sacrificing shifting speed in one direction. Now with MULTI RELEASE you can release shift two gears in one stroke. The result - the fastest possible shifting in both directions regardless of rear derailleur choice........."
Are they admitting that previous trigger shifters short changed their own Rapid Rise derailleurs? Why are they offering low normal shifters all of a sudden?????? Is there going to be a choice again?
https://bike.shimano.com/en-EU/technologies/component/details/steps/free-shift.html
What next ? Is Rapid Rise coming back too? Here's some text from them on their XTR shifters
MULTI RELEASE
"Previous shifting systems shifted faster in one direction than the other. Choosing top normal or low normal always meant sacrificing shifting speed in one direction. Now with MULTI RELEASE you can release shift two gears in one stroke. The result - the fastest possible shifting in both directions regardless of rear derailleur choice........."
Are they admitting that previous trigger shifters short changed their own Rapid Rise derailleurs? Why are they offering low normal shifters all of a sudden?????? Is there going to be a choice again?
