Rapid Rise vs. Front Freewheel (or both?)

[Retrorockit]

This is the one I use that clearly says Rapid Rise. The numbers are correct, but it does turn backwards to others. The detents and spring loading are in the right direction for low normal derailleurs. There are a few of these left in the UK. Almost non existent elsewhere. 7s is fairly common.
Front derailleurs are all low normal so maybe a front friction shifter would work for 9 speed. But 8 is enough for the Ebike, and the XC bike is now 1x11.
I always run gripshifters, and set the bike up to take full advantage of them.

 

[robfinger]

I absolutely positively despise revo/grip shifters, but the rapid-rise derailleurs work perfectly fine with standard 9-speed trigger shifters. On my hybrid I run a Nexave RR derailleur with a Sram Rocket shifter and it's like they were meant for each other (yes the numbers go in the opposite direction, if it bothered me that much I'd have just erased the 1, 3, 7 and 9 from the indicator window). On my Demo 8 that's now a city cruiser due to the typical 2005 model issue I got a Deore LX rapid-rise deraileur with a newer dual-release Deore shifter that don't even have any numbers on the indicator window from the factory so it could run either way without any confusion - and this also shifts great despite the fact the derailleur is worn at the pivot and can swing sideways quite a bit. To me RR is the only way to go for a bike that's being used in urban environment, it downshift so much faster and easier than standard systems which is godsend when coming up to an intersection where you gotta stop or slow way down. And I just found two NOS still in boxes Deore RR derailleurs for 30 quid each on ebay so I immediately bought the both of them - one is going on the Demo to replace the loose LX and the other is destined for the shelf till I have a need for it.

 

[Retrorockit]

I agree that RR is pretty much necessary for urban riding. I see lot's of people hate gripshifters. But they never seem to give an actual reason why. I'm down to one gripshifter on both my bikes. Very easy to access any gear any time. I don't have time to twiddle my thumbs in traffic looking for the right gear. Now that I've done the front freewheel mod on both bikes I think it's even better than RR.One thing FFW does is it can raise the derailleur up out of harms way at any speed. The FFW you don't need to pedal it into gear, it's already there. The Ebike is pretty much silent, but the White ENO lets you know when you've selected the right gear to resume pedaling.

 

[robfinger]

I hate the grip/revo shifters cause they just feel weird to me, plus they require me to actually let go of the bar to properly shift whereas with any Sram trigger and Shimano dual-release triggers I can be holding onto that grip for dear life while at the same time shifting AND braking as needed. For this reason I also dislike the older-style Shimano triggers where you need to use your index finger to release them, yeah I can actually operate the shifter with my index finger while pulling on the brake with the middle one but that's like using your left foot to operate the accelerator pedal on a vehicle - good skill to have but awkward at best and still not a great idea. Tbh I'm very partial to how fast and light Sram shifters operate, to me even the old X7s with the vertical gear indicator still feel better than the 9-speed XT in dual-release version (which is why I own those Rocket shifters, so I can use the Sram controls with the Shimano RR execution, best of both worlds for me there

Do you mind posting some pictures of your FFW setups? Cause I still can't quite wrap my head around what they actually are and how they work. But by the sounds of it yeah they do seem pretty great.

 

[Retrorockit]

My bike came with the old triggers. but I went to gripshifts and stayed there. I took some photos and video. But they're stuck in my camera. I'll have to make some more with my phone. It's kind of funny. I did the FFW on the Ebike, and then did the XC so they would shift alike. I tried to remove the Rapid Rise form the Ebike so that would match. But my parts didn't work together as planned, so i have to fix that first. I was trying to avoid running a longer through the frame shifter cable. But i's looking like there's no way around it.
I did get a tripod for my cell phone., and can put the XC up on a trainer to get pictures of it working. It's funny. My weird stuff all went right together and worked. But a simple derailleur swap took the Ebike down.

 

[Retrorockit]

I did get one video posted of the Ebike showing this. The center stand and motor made it easier to film than the XC bike. I was waving the phone around with my left hand and working the throttle and shifter with the right. The pedals don't move during the whole video. @.40 there is a Rapid Rise downshift when stopped. You can hear the shifter click 3 times, then the chain moves when the wheel does. At one point you can see the top chain idler that controls the slack in the chain. The mod on this bike was a zip tie between the cassette and spokes, and the idler to keep the chain on. I didn't show the zip tie because the bike now has a friction ring betweeen the cassette and hub flange instead. You can clearly see the derailleur tucking up next to the frame in low gear at high speeds. You can get into and back out of this gear without pedaling.

The XC bike does the same thing. But I had to swap the cranks over to freewheel cranks, and add the White ENO Ebike (flanged) freewheel. The zip tie, and chain guide are the same. I don't have a hub motor Ebike but that would be one application for this. The ENO is louder than the Ebike freewheel, and you can find the right gear by the sound. BMX and Trials guys judge freewheels by the number of clicks. I converted mine form 36 to 72 clicks just to see if it would work. There is a short clip showing the sound it makes. 5* engagement instead of 10*.

But you can freeze it and see the parts.

 

[robfinger]

Aaah okay I get it now! For some reason I was thinking a FFW allowed you to shift with the bike not moving so I was getting quite confused how that's even possible But what you meant was that as long as the rear wheel is rotating the derailleur will shift regardless of whether you're spinning the pedals or not.

I still think RR is the way to go just cause of how easy it downshift. Pairing that with a FFW would make things even faster obviously, as is the case with your e-bike.

 

[Retrorockit]

The RR can preselect a downshift when stopped. There's one in the vid. But the FFW is usually already in gear.,and now my 2 bikes shift reversed. The BBSHD doesn't have torque sensing. If you're in 1000W+ setting and preselect a gear it can get messy when you start up again.
I don't like to theorize too much. It's more fun to mod. the bike and see what really happens. I tried a Sunrace M9 but it's not playing well with the 11s chain and SRAM Attack 8 speeed gripshifter. So I'm going full experimental again. Someone sent me an M5120 deraillaur by mistake. Stiff spring and clutch. Rumor has it that old SRAM X series 8,9s gripshifts work with it. The Sunrace M9 is kind of like an extended derailleur hanger. The guide wheel is far away from the smallest cogs. They just did the extension at the cage pivot instead of the hanger. The 11s chain seems too whippy to make the shift that far away. It's rated for 50t cogs anyway. In some cases the modern derailleur can eliminate the need for a chain guide setup (but not on this cross chained monster).
But yes it does still shift as usual when pedaling. That doesn't change. the loss of efficiency is only when coasting. Pedaling it all turns together as usual. You can lift off the pedals on the XC and keep turning, when you hear the first couple ckicks from the ENO you know there's no load. The Ebike only cuts power at a full stop so the technique is a little different But the full stop works on both bikes. The full stop eliminates the need for a shift cable sensor to cut power for shifts on the Ebike. For me it's too much time without power, and shift s require more time a t low wheel speeds than high. So it's usually longer than needed..
I could throw down a bunch of gears at speed with the RR. But I had to pedal it into gear before stopping, and the derailleur cage was still hanging down. I'm going to go FFW and see how it works out. On the Ebike it's easy and well worth doing. On the XC it's harder to do and probably not for everyone. On a hub motor Ebike up and downshifts while leaned over in turns would be worth having. Especially since an IGH is not an option there.

 

[Retrorockit]

A few more thoughts on this. If you own more than one bike. You may want to do trigger shifters on the non RR bike, and gripshifters on the RR one. This way shift habits can stay the same for each bike. ASFIK there are no RR triggers out there. They tend to ration upshifts, which with RR means they now ration downshifts instead. This kind of defeats the whole purpose.
AS far as the ability to shift and brake at once with gripshifters... In the US that would be the rear brake, which often as not you're better off not using anyway ( see Sheldon Brown for moron this). So that might be a UK problem? I've found swapping brake levers to be transparent since braking is done so much by feel rather than habit. The guy who did my Ebike conversion for me did them UK style. I hardly noticed before or after switching them back.
For the axle bodgers out there. Shimano Hone derailleurs came in Rapid Rise, and 10mm through axle configuration. GS mid cage is also fairly common. There are Hone hubs also in the now uncommon 10mm TA x 135mm width. Much less pricey than the XTR stuff due to the oddball configuration. Avoid the Saint hubs they had a Saint only oversized Shimano Centerlock brake rotor spline. I think the Hone is normal there. There was also a ZEE series to look into. The Zee series hubs seems to feature quicker engagement angle than the Hone series..

 

[robfinger]

I actually find it easier and more accurate to tap the small lever on the triggers few times in quick succession than do one big swing of the big lever that shifts 3 or more gears. 100% personal preference there, as I was never a fan of jumping a lot of gears at once, plus the whole motion of the thumb that makes this happen always felt awkward to me. Not sure if I mentioned it but my favorite RR setup involves the Shimano derailleur being controlled by the old SRAM Rocket triggers (which are basically X7 with 1:2 pull ratio), though for the one bike that I sometimes ride with winter gloves I use a Deore dual-release shifter cause fat thumbs don't work well with the Rockets.

I'll have to look into the Hone and Zee setups now for the Kona Coiler trail bike that I'll be building soon, thanks for the idea there.