Pace...where's it all going?

[Dr S]

The point I'm trying to make is that a Cotic or any other Reynolds tubed frame will not break in half doing the same thing as your Pig (I have tried believe me!). It's just as strong without resorting to all those ugly gussets and over engineering. That over engineering is there to compensate for cheap materials- there are loads of long forked frames around now that pass the latest CEN tests without resorting to taking lumps of off-cuts from the factory floor and badly welding them onto the frame everywhere.

Let's look at things from another side then. How much money would you get for your pig in a years time if you wanted to buy something else? Souls are quite rare second hand as folk tend to keep them- they have been on production for 10 years now but you hardly ever see them for sale on eBay, and as a result second hand prices are high. I'd bet my last quid you would get a better resale price on a Soul or a Pace or a P7 than a Ragley.

 

[graham1975]

DR S maybe if you are destroying so many parts on your superlightweight hardtail you should try building a more burly one as i have not destroyed anypart of mine exept a rear rim, you kind of like contredicted what you was saying about going light on a hardcore hardtail,
Why would i spend an extra £130 on a Cotic frame to save 1LB and build it up using hardcore indistructible parts, mine weighs 27LB with pedals and like i say never nakt anything up, you build a lightweight 25LB bike and constantly breaking it, were the sense or point in that!?

 

[Russell]

Dr S,

At the start of this thread you're very keen to bash Brant Richards and his way of working, voicing your opposition to Far Eastern made frames, but now you're waxing lyrical about your Cotic Soul, which (and I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong) Brant Richards was instrumental in getting built initially, probably in the very same factory in Taiwan that the On-One frames are made. Are Cotics now not made in Taiwan, probably by the same workers that make the On-One frames?

 

[graham1975]

I dont give a crap on the resale price of a bike or frame, i buy what i want to buy, i love the gussett on the front of my Ragley, i think it shows it means business, and what the hell we are never going to agree, so no point continuing this conversation, i bought a bluepig you bought a cotic...... so what, you like yours i like mine and that the end of it as far as im concerned :evil: :evil:

 

[graham1975]

Dr S,

At the start of this thread you're very keen to bash Brant Richards and his way of working, voicing your opposition to Far Eastern made frames, but now you're waxing lyrical about your Cotic Soul, which (and I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong) Brant Richards was instrumental in getting built initially, probably in the very same factory in Taiwan that the On-One frames are made. Are Cotics now not made in Taiwan, probably by the same workers that make the On-One frames?

Nice one Russell, im sure DR S will tell you you are wrong in some way or another,god ohhh mighty some people make me mad......... everyones wrong if they dont agree with DR S!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Russell]

Thought I'd better just back up what I'm saying here

You said this DrS..

Then the On One days, oh he's great, the bikes are cool! Why??

I'll tell you why. Just because you had a load of keyboard warriors who wanted to build a cheep winter hack to save their over the top full sussers getting trashed in the grit and mud they went out and bought a cheap nasty hardtail frame and hey presto! Wow! Hardtails are great, hardtails are cool. Problem is that they were just rubbish frames, rubbish tubing welded in a sweat shop in the far east. Why are they great? because they are cheap?? Do people say Protons and Ladas were great because they were cheap? Supermarket own brand beans are great because they are cheap??
99% of these guys had never riden a good quality hardtail so had nothing to guage them against. Its like going from public transport to a battered old £200 Corsa and claiming its fantastic- of course it is, because thats all they know.
If he made top quality products then I could understand the hype but its just all bollocks. I don't think he invented anything or is an innovator at all. As for inventing the long forked hardtail????? Hes just a ex-journo/business man who has contributed nothing at all. Do we aplaud Apollo or Halfords for making affordable bikes?? Why does On One get plaudits? Because it's slick marketing and hype thats why, backed up my the army of arselickers he has on Singletrackworld.

But on the Cotic website...

Early 2002: Via a random forum post on Singletrackworld I was introduced to Brant Richards who was running On One at the time. Mentioned I had a frame design, he said send it over. I sent him a full production spec CAD drawing (hey, I'm an engineer, it's what I do!). Brant was pretty impressed and told me he could get me a price for 100 frames. Still had no intention of selling them really, but figured getting a number couldn't hurt. That number turned out to be not too crazy, so Brant offered to get me a couple of prototypes, so in February 2002 drawing CTE-001 (medium) and CTE-002 (large) were sent to Taiwan (NB - CTE is Cy Turner Engineering Ltd, my engineering contracting company that became Cotic).

Given the above info, and that a 'Soul' will set you back £470, but an 'Inbred 456' just £149. Who is it thats really being suckered in by the marketing?

 

[Dr S]

If you asked everyy single person on the forum what there best bike is or would be, you would get a liast with ptrobably every single bike ever made on it, everyone has there own opinion on the best bike, just because you DR S like the Cotic and i like the Bluepig does not mean either of use are wrong or have made the wrong choice, thats the bike i wanted to buy and the Cotic is the bike you wanted to buy, hey ho whats the problem

I don't have a problem at all, different strokes dude, i have other bikes that I like much more than my Cotic.

Not once have I said the Cotic is the best bike- just better than Brants Budget stuff. There are 101 better bikes than Cotic. I bought one because I wanted a reasonably priced steel hardtail that would take the hits without being ugly- I won't take a big hit when I come to sell it on in the future.
The point I and others have tried to make is that you get what you pay for. Comments like 'Taiwan make the best frames in the world- proven, period' is just ignorance and naive.
Would high end or custom builders like Groovy, Potts, Iglehart, IF, Moots make a living if the best bikes in the world were made from cheap scaffold tube and could be had for a few hundred quid? As much as I like the Soul it is what it is- a mid price steel hardtail and I fully accept that.

As I have said, enjoy your pig for what it is and if I'm down you way we can have a blast about and swap bikes for a bit.

 

[cchris2lou]

intesresting debate , but in all of that where is the pleasure of owning a " nice " bike ?

 

[Dr S]

Graham and Russell, why are you turning this into a personal attack??

I'm not waxing lyrical about my Cotic, I'm trying and have been from the start to suggest that it's down to materials- I used Cotic as an example as I have experience of the ride (rather than blathering on about a bike I have never riden), I could have used Fat City and True Temper tubing as an example. Cheap frame = cheap materials , even if it's made in the same factory in Taiwan!

As for the build on my own bike Graham I wouldn't call bolt throu axle Magura forks, Halo SAS rims, kenda 2.5 Nevegals, middleburn cranks, DH bar and stem, 1x9 with bash and chain device a 'light' build. Yet it all still breaks.

 

[graham1975]

Thought I'd better just back up what I'm saying here

You said this DrS..

Then the On One days, oh he's great, the bikes are cool! Why??

I'll tell you why. Just because you had a load of keyboard warriors who wanted to build a cheep winter hack to save their over the top full sussers getting trashed in the grit and mud they went out and bought a cheap nasty hardtail frame and hey presto! Wow! Hardtails are great, hardtails are cool. Problem is that they were just rubbish frames, rubbish tubing welded in a sweat shop in the far east. Why are they great? because they are cheap?? Do people say Protons and Ladas were great because they were cheap? Supermarket own brand beans are great because they are cheap??
99% of these guys had never riden a good quality hardtail so had nothing to guage them against. Its like going from public transport to a battered old £200 Corsa and claiming its fantastic- of course it is, because thats all they know.
If he made top quality products then I could understand the hype but its just all bollocks. I don't think he invented anything or is an innovator at all. As for inventing the long forked hardtail????? Hes just a ex-journo/business man who has contributed nothing at all. Do we aplaud Apollo or Halfords for making affordable bikes?? Why does On One get plaudits? Because it's slick marketing and hype thats why, backed up my the army of arselickers he has on Singletrackworld.

But on the Cotic website...

Early 2002: Via a random forum post on Singletrackworld I was introduced to Brant Richards who was running On One at the time. Mentioned I had a frame design, he said send it over. I sent him a full production spec CAD drawing (hey, I'm an engineer, it's what I do!). Brant was pretty impressed and told me he could get me a price for 100 frames. Still had no intention of selling them really, but figured getting a number couldn't hurt. That number turned out to be not too crazy, so Brant offered to get me a couple of prototypes, so in February 2002 drawing CTE-001 (medium) and CTE-002 (large) were sent to Taiwan (NB - CTE is Cy Turner Engineering Ltd, my engineering contracting company that became Cotic).

Given the above info, and that a 'Soul' will set you back £470, but an 'Inbred 456' just £149. Who is it thats really being suckered in by the marketing?