Old frames. Can they cut it today

[Bats]

Best part of an old bike is often the frame. (it sure as hell isn't friction gears with thirty years of wear...)

A full 531 butted frame is a little, little tiny bit more flexible than the heaviest cheap carbon frame. And it weighs a little, little tiny bit more than a fairly expensive carbon frame.

They're honestly so close that it's basically a matter of aesthetics at this point. Either way if you're going to put ultra expensive modern parts on it, even something like a 501 main-tubes-only frame will give you a bike too light to go UCI racing on. Even if just by a hair.

Personally I'll have the steel every single time. For some reason they think taking off mudguard eyelets will make the new ones super fast.

 

[carlrh]

My new carbon sits in the shop all day when i ride it in everyone says wow thats fast or quick but its never moved an inch, then my 80s 753 is the same when i ride that in its never managed to move on its own either
you got to have the legs to make anything go fast

 

[glpinxit]

Bats, I don't know where you've got your numbers from. My 531C frame is spot on 2Kg, my 753 is 1.8Kg and forks around 700g for both and they build up to 10Kg bikes. Or you can shave a kilo by spending a lot more on lighter wheels, fancy sprockets and so on. A good carbon frame is under 1Kg and forks under 400g. The UCI minimum weight is 6.8Kg or 15lb and you will have spent space programme $,€ or £ to get anywhere close to that with a steel frame.

However, with steel you get comfort, the satisfaction of knowing an artisan brazed your frame and the confidence that you won't write it off if it falls over on a windy day. And my personal satisfaction comes from the history and not feeling like I have to chase a time on every segment.

 

[Bats]

Bats, I don't know where you've got your numbers from. My 531C frame is spot on 2Kg, my 753 is 1.8Kg and forks around 700g for both and they build up to 10Kg bikes. Or you can shave a kilo by spending a lot more on lighter wheels, fancy sprockets and so on. A good carbon frame is under 1Kg and forks under 400g. The UCI minimum weight is 6.8Kg or 15lb and you will have spent space programme $,€ or £ to get anywhere close to that with a steel frame.

So your 531C frame and forks is 2.5KG, versus "a good carbon frame" at 1.3 to 1.4KG

I'm not seeing where the space program money is? Some consumer carbon road bikes are more than 1kg under the minimum weight allowance. Even with deep aero rims they put on for racing, they still have to dump loads of ballast down the seat tube.

It's not at all worth worrying about. A steel bike will, with the right bits, get under the minimum by a hair. Even if you fit fat tyres and some placcy mudguards, nobody is going to call 7KG heavy. Especially since carbon bikes lighter than them have price tags like god's phone number.

 

[bm0p700f]

No body call 7kg heavy, you have been over to weight weenies then have you?

My steel race bike is 8kg to get it down 7kg would require a major spend on very expensive and not very durable hubset weighing less than 200g, stupidly expenvie Enve tubular rims, 100g saddle/seat post combo that I could not sit on, THM forks I cannot afford, light weight brakes that make my record brakes look cheap and that won't work as well - you get the idea.

Also an old 531 steel is nearly as stiff as a modern carbon frame well that is just dreaming and all these marginal gains do add up to something substainal but older bikes are still fine for riding, in fact I prefer them.

 

[mattr]

TBH, unless you are putting out 5+w/kg at threshold or 1200+ Watts in a sprint, the chances of you actually noticing a worthwhile difference that will actually improve your performance is between slim and none.
The biggest difference to performance (by a huge margin), once you eliminate the gas pipe/cheap nasty carbon frames is the fit of the bike. A right sized, well fitted frame, steel or carbon, is a joy to ride.
Rubbing wheels ^^^^^ is more likely to be a rubbish wheelbuild, massive tyres or an absolute garbage cheap nasty knock off frame, or a ribble. Rather than any inherent issue with a decent frame.
Some of the non-telephone number priced steel bikes are knocking on the door of UCI bans as well. A modern steel frame, top end groupset (inc carbon wheels) and some moderate finishing kit, will be around the 17-18lb mark or less. And cost you about 4-5k. You *could* spend 12-15k (and more) on a carbon wonderbike and save another 4-5lbs. Wouldn't make you noticeably faster. Might get you banned/prevented from racing.

And FWIW one of the top current british teams is/was running steel, doesn't seem to be doing them much harm.......

Theres also a 60+ page thread on weightweenies, showcasing all that is great and good in the world of steel frames.

(One proviso, to all this. Some older steel frames won't be compatible with modern kit. So you'll end up bodging stuff to fit/work)

And i'm currently pondering on if i upgrade my 90s steel bike to ultegra 11 speed, to keep it compatible with the new carbon wonder bike i may or may not ever get (Twins tends to do that to your bank balance!) or to just bite the bullet and put the DA 11 groupset/new wheels/carbon everything on it. And not get a wonderbike.
The 90's steel weighed around 18lbs when i was racing it, i'd expect less than that if i bring it bang up to date.

 

[oonaff]

sorry to but in on a tangent one, but on a fast technical decent does any one notice the stearing getting lighter?
it could be my riding position but its put me off getting carbon forks a bit.
i was told at my lbs 10kg was a good weight for a steely and worried that a really light bike might be a bit skittish on those gravel laiden bits you get at t junctions.
great topic! im getting a kalloy aero seat post 267g for £10 thats lighter than a durace s/h £50

 

[pigman]

A full 531 butted frame is a little, little tiny bit more flexible than the heaviest cheap carbon frame. And it weighs a little, little tiny bit more than a fairly expensive carbon frame.

They're honestly so close that it's basically a matter of aesthetics at this point. Either way if you're going to put ultra expensive modern parts on it, even something like a 501 main-tubes-only frame will give you a bike too light to go UCI racing on. Even if just by a hair.

you serious? Don't know what else to say without being offensive. Best I can muster is to say you have little hands-on experience of modern bikes.

 

[David B]

And FWIW one of the top current british teams is/was running steel, doesn't seem to be doing them much harm.......

2 top British squads use steel at the moment, although unlike Madison-Genesis I don't think Rapha-Condor are exclusively on steel frames for all events. Then again, as far as I know they've mostly been on steel (Deda IIRC) in the Tour Series crits and managed to bag the title pretty easily.

As a big steel fan myself, seeing Liam Holohan riding a Volare 953 for Madison and easily mixing it with the best of them on one of the lumpy West Country ToB stages last year was pretty satisfying.

David

 

[bm0p700f]

Well steel frames below 1700g for a 58cm still don't exist. Some steel frames on WW are quoted down to 1500g but they tend to be small ones. My build is 17.lb with record 10 speed and pretty high end deda finishing kit. I could save a 60g on the seat post another 50g or so on the saddle and some weight on the wheels but it would still be over 7 kg. All those WW sub 7 kg steel bikes have 1kg wheelsets and kit like that and are all on small frames.

The gains a modern bike give (aero and stiffness) make themselves felt for all riders. For the aero gains allone take a rider who can muster 400W on on a 10 miles TT and one who can average 200W. Put them both on two different bikes one modern and aero one from 1980. The time saving would be greatest for the 200W rider and maths can and has proved it. I have a model in a spreadsheet that does the number crunching. This is all back up by work done by Cerevlo e.t.c.

So modern bike work, modern kit wheels e.t.c on a good old frame makes a difference too.

Steel can and is raced very effictlively. I like it alot.