Old frames. Can they cut it today

[mattr]

Re: Re:

If they were, pinarello would issue steel bikes to tour riders.

No they wouldn't, most of the tour riders have either less than 10% body fat, more than 5 w/kg and can produce over 1200W at the end of a stage, or all three (and they likely have their position absolutely spot on). So they are in the enviable position where the marginal gains provided by saving a pound or two on the frame and a small aero benefit actually matter and can be measured. The aero doesn't have a massive effect until you are travelling at a sustained 40kph or (significantly) more, the stiffness doesn't have a massive effect until you are cranking out huge watts, the weight change won't be significant as the all up difference is going to be (significantly) less than 2%. And thanks to the UCI weight limit, probably 0.

Until you are in that boat, the difference between a round tubed steel frame and an aero profiled, lightweight carbon frame is almost all in your head. There will probably be an order of magnitude more difference between the fastest and slowest of your group of riding companions than there will between your bikes.

I think a lot of people have been thoroughly fooled by all the advertising blurb about stiffer, faster, saves a million watts and so on. The reality is that Cav would still be one of the fastest finishers in the world on a steel frame, Cancellara would still smash TTs and Quintana would still climb rather quickly.

 

[bugloss]

Re:

Until you are in that boat, the difference between a round tubed steel frame and an aero profiled, lightweight carbon frame is almost all in your head. There will probably be an order of magnitude more difference between the fastest and slowest of your group of riding companions than there will between your bikes.

I think a lot of people have been thoroughly fooled by all the advertising blurb about stiffer, faster, saves a million watts and so on. The reality is that Cav would still be one of the fastest finishers in the world on a steel frame, Cancellara would still smash TTs and Quintana would still climb rather quickly.

Exactly.

The OP has £500 to spend on a frame. Does he get a really top quality used steel frame or a low end carbon frame? We know the answer to that one.

He also said that he was new to road riding , but belongs to a club, so he's probably not riding as a categorised racer.

The greatest gain he's going to get is by becoming fitter and riding a bike that fits and not by buying a carbon frame. To get fitter you need to spend a lot of time riding miles and that's how he's going to see the greatest gain in performance by a long chalk, not by looking flash on the latest wizz bang bike but still being a lardy.

 

[pigman]

Re:

ok, one question though ... is there any difference between a hi-ten gas pipe steel frame and say a 531?

 

[pigman]

Re: Re:

The OP has £500 to spend on a frame. Does he get a really top quality used steel frame or a low end carbon frame? We know the answer to that one.

but they are not the only possibilities - you give only 2 choices - new crap carbon or good used steel.
what about used quality carbon?
what about new or used aluminuim?
there are far more permutations than you suggest

 

[bugloss]

I only suggested old steel or new carbon because his question was whether he should buy a second hand steel frame or go new. With new I automatically assumed carbon as that's what he was talking about.

You are quite correct in suggesting that there are more possibilities than the two I offered.

 

[Johnsqual]

Re: Re:

ok, one question though ... is there any difference between a hi-ten gas pipe steel frame and say a 531?

I am not by any means an expert, but I think it could be summed up in terms of strength, stiffness, lightness and flexibility.

A high ten frame will probably be plain gauge so it may be strong and stiff but the thick walls will make it heavy and 'dead' feeling.

Butted tubes are thicker at the ends, so stronger and stiffer, but thin in the middle so they are lighter and may give a 'springy' ride due to a degree of flex in the tubes.

I have a U Scanini steel bike which is a sort of knock off of the Colnago Masters with the crimped Gilco tubing. I liked to kid myself that it was a faithful imitation of the Colnagos, but I've since ridden a couple of the real things, and they are both incredibly light compared to the Scanini and indeed have a sort of springy, nimble feel to them.

That said, I still prefer the steel Scanini to an Alu frame for riding over cobbles.

 

[pigman]

Re: Re:

ok, one question though ... is there any difference between a hi-ten gas pipe steel frame and say a 531?

I am not by any means an expert, but I think it could be summed up in terms of strength, stiffness, lightness and flexibility.

A high ten frame will probably be plain gauge so it may be strong and stiff but the thick walls will make it heavy and 'dead' feeling.

Butted tubes are thicker at the ends, so stronger and stiffer, but thin in the middle so they are lighter and may give a 'springy' ride due to a degree of flex in the tubes.

I have a U Scanini steel bike which is a sort of knock off of the Colnago Masters with the crimped Gilco tubing. I liked to kid myself that it was a faithful imitation of the Colnagos, but I've since ridden a couple of the real things, and they are both incredibly light compared to the Scanini and indeed have a sort of springy, nimble feel to them.

That said, I still prefer the steel Scanini to an Alu frame for riding over cobbles.

my question was really playing devil's advocate. I suppose I could rephrase it another way - if the consensus is carbon makes no difference and is sold those who have been duped by the marketeers, at what point have the 531 riders been duped into buying 531 (or Col SL/SLX), when they could just as well ride gas pipe?

 

[bugloss]

I knew you were going to say that, that's why I didn't try to answer the question. ;-)

 

[Johnsqual]

Re: Re:

ok, one question though ... is there any difference between a hi-ten gas pipe steel frame and say a 531?

I am not by any means an expert, but I think it could be summed up in terms of strength, stiffness, lightness and flexibility.

A high ten frame will probably be plain gauge so it may be strong and stiff but the thick walls will make it heavy and 'dead' feeling.

Butted tubes are thicker at the ends, so stronger and stiffer, but thin in the middle so they are lighter and may give a 'springy' ride due to a degree of flex in the tubes.

I have a U Scanini steel bike which is a sort of knock off of the Colnago Masters with the crimped Gilco tubing. I liked to kid myself that it was a faithful imitation of the Colnagos, but I've since ridden a couple of the real things, and they are both incredibly light compared to the Scanini and indeed have a sort of springy, nimble feel to them.

That said, I still prefer the steel Scanini to an Alu frame for riding over cobbles.

my question was really playing devil's advocate. I suppose I could rephrase it another way - if the consensus is carbon makes no difference and is sold those who have been duped by the marketeers, at what point have the 531 riders been duped into buying 531 (or Col SL/SLX), when they could just as well ride gas pipe?

I did wonder how seriously the question was to be taken

It does start to seem that the endless minor variations of Columbus tubing in particular were either due to marketing gimmickry or due to the R and D department at Columbus getting a bit obsessive and having too much time on their hands.

 

[pigman]

Re:

the conclusion I have come to is that the bike equipmemt one has is the correct stuff. Traditionally, this adage has been applied to groupsets. So if I ride Ultegra, then 105 and below is tat and DuraAce is a waste hyped up by the industry. So I rest assured that my Ultegra is the correct stuff.

Similar to people's perception of frames ..
if one rides gas pipe, then anything upwards is a waste
if one rides tradional Reynolds and columbus, then gas pipe is crap and carbon is a waste.

With that, I am happy to draw my conclusions of how people view frame materials, except to say that I am in a position where I ride gas pipe (roadified MTB), Columbus steel, aluminium and high end carbon, and feel that there are wholesale differences in performance between them. The effects of this difference isn't so marked on flat rides or longer, steadier audaxes, where it's a case of completing the distance in a steady state, but on lumpy chaingangs (probably racing too, but I havent raced since 1989) where changes in pace (effort/intensity) takes away the steady-state riding.