Oh man...I think I just became a collector

We always rode up steep gravelly/rocky hills bitd, the sense of satisfaction and health benefits made it a joy, especially the sheer physicality of it. Its very rare to see that with modern riders unless they are on e bikes. I get the benefits of leccys particularly for older infirm riders or people with medical conditions but i just think some of the purity has left the sport. 🤔
 
Ultimately it's one of my great pleasures in life, watching greedy corporations - and it's not just cycling but everything is infected with this - flailing around as they desperately try to invent the latest big thing and corral the masses into their shops, when we all know that the next big thing always comes from kids being creative while at play, but of course they can't control or prepare for that, so they are forced to manufacture artificial versions in the hope that something sticks. It works on many people, plenty out there who need to be told how to spend their money in order to have fun.
The problem of course comes when a corporation invents the steel mountain bike, or anything else that lasts decades with basic maintenance that you can do yourself, and modular interchangeable components that fit within a set of international standards...

Then they have to start building in dependancies and incompatibilities, or even better, a frame material that has a much shorter life span...
 
We always rode up steep gravelly/rocky hills bitd, the sense of satisfaction and health benefits made it a joy, especially the sheer physicality of it. Its very rare to see that with modern riders unless they are on e bikes. I get the benefits of leccys particularly for older infirm riders or people with medical conditions but i just think some of the purity has left the sport. 🤔
I certainly enjoy riding down but in large part because of the ride up. And if it's too steep or technical to ride, then pushing or carrying is all part of the sport.

I am currently working towards Club des Cent Cols membership, and so do a bit of climbing. I should have it done next summer, with about 90% mountain bike passes.
 
I'm sat somewhere on the fence in this debate. And I appreciate vocalising this comes with risks when you vent those opinions in the back yard of a fan group.

Do I find retro bikes more interesting / beautiful / desirable than modern bikes - YES

Do I think retro suspension stands up to new stuff (e.g. would my Judy's outperform my coil converted Fox 36's) - NO, personal opinion is they just don't (certainly for someone of my girth/weight/riding style). They don't have the robustness, small bump compliance, travel, resilience. The first good fork I ever owned was a 98 Bomber Z2 Lite, and before these I've not ridden many forks that I find particularly impressive. However retro forks look better, no question

Do I prefer replacing brake discs than burning through wheel rims - YES, because brake discs are less desirable than expensive wheelsets

Do I prefer 1x12 to 9x3 - NO, I find the new kit overpriced, hard to optimise, drifts out of tune easily, and did I mention OVERPRICED?

Do I like the market segmentation of modern MTB - NO, it's bullshit to make people think they need a quiver of bikes for no good reason.

What did I love about retro that new bikes don't deliver on - Variation in design between manufacturers (brands were instantly recognisable), innovation, lightness, 'the scene'

Do I like eBikes - YES, I have a 180mm Spesh Kenevo Pro. It's astonishing for a long day where you need to cover long distances in technical terrain to get between 2 points. If you ride it properly it doesn't wreck the ground (not schralping everywhere). They have a place, but I only use it 10% of the time as I love the sense of achievement of being able to ride under my own steam. My biggest issue with them is they introduce people into our sport who come with no sense of trail etiquette or sensitivity to the environs. Otherwise I take no issue with them.

Why would I ride a modern MTB over a retro one at a bike park - Convenience and confidence. My Moxie hardtail doesn't resemble anything from the 90's, the low 60's degree head angle, adjustable rear wheel dropouts and burly build just allows me to stick stuff I wouldn't likely try on the Zaskar. OK, yes I could learn to do it on the Zaskar, but I'd rather trash a modern bike than something I love & respect. It's not that I won't ride my Zaskar, I just don't want to kill it unnecessarily as it's precious unlike my new bikes.

Unfortunately the sport is established and I don't think we'll ever have that golden era again as today the industry is focussed on mass market, margins, and many of the people who work in the large corporates probably aren't even true cycling enthusiasts with any interest in working outside the brief. Its sad, but at least for those of us of a certain age we had the joy of living / riding / racing and soaking up a magical time. At the advent of the sport companies were investing heavily to make MTB the next big thing, however that cycle is over and we're now into the business model of cost minimisation, profit maximisation and trying to market based on FOMO. To my mind it seemed to implode when all the well known established brands starting going bust on being hoovered up by the corporates in the late 90's, and once brands like Yeti ended up in the hands of Fischer skis (I think from memory), then it was a slow trajectory to where we are now. Only a personal opinion, and always happy to be enlightened / challenged on it!
 
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I think Peachy's lad summed elegantly it up here:

phils-fetish-jpg.576002

Especially when your name's Phil.
 
I have a lot of thoughts on this, not least as someone who (goes back to look at his very first post...) only joined this forum a little over a year ago, and now has three bikes in rotation and two more builds currently on the go!

(Whoops, look what you all did!)

So yeah, I'm already in deep.

When I joined this place I think I'd purchased my first frame, maybe the fork too. I'd set out with the simple goal of building from scratch the kind of bike I never had as a kid. I'm 80s-born, so one of the early-to-mid 90s generation, and my participation and specific interest in MTB stops almost entirely towards the end of that decade.

I can also tell you that in all the years since I was actively riding until the last couple, nothing I've seen from afar, from the industry to the bikes themselves, to the gear I'd see people riding in, has tempted me back into the saddle or workshop.

I didn't once lay eyes on a new mountain bike from across the road or hillside and think, "Cor, I really want to ride that thing! I should get back into bikes!"

It was old bikes from my childhood and teens, and the chance to own some of them, that brought me back. And that's because they hold a lot of power and outsize influence. Which is clearly the reason, or some version of it, for why we're all here, talking about this.

I've mentioned it elsewhere, but after the first two builds, I definitely sat down and outlined some goals in regards to my collecting (for want of a better word) and riding. I tried to limit myself in a focussed but open and interesting way, so that I didn't go out of control with purchases and say yes to every exciting or tempting thing that might come my way. Basically, I made of list of builders and bikes and years. Nothing crazy, nothing unrealistic; just longterm goals. Now, does that list keep shifting and growing? Of course. The more you learn the more you want. But so far it's helping me keep on track and things in check.

The hardest, weirdest thing is that, of that short list, three different unicorns, for different reasons, have all arrived on my doorstep or within my reach in the past six months. I didn't expect that! I can't afford that! But hey, I'm rolling with it for now.

And I can honestly say, without hyperbole, that following this desire, this hobby, has already become all consuming, but also, critically, one of the most pleasurable things I've done in my entire adult life. (I would say "the most" but there are a few other longterm endeavors I'd feel like I was cheating on if I did.) I enjoy every aspect of this (except coming up with the money for it); from researching and learning from all the people in communities like this, to searching for bikes and parts in person and online, to building and wrenching, to talking about bikes and riding them! Especially riding them! There's no part of this that doesn't fill me with happiness, accomplishment and excitement, and no time when I don't feel inspired to keep going for what's maybe around the next corner.

It's like therapy, most of the time.

Now, the more I ride the more I wonder: Will I ever buy a modern bike?

If you'd asked me in December of 2020 I would have said little to no chance, but these days, riding now almost every day, I think it's probably a fair shout that I'll end up on something modern eventually (modern, like, within the past 20 years ;)). But I would still bet money that modern bike won't be an outright MTB.

I'm sure they ride amazing; I'm sure they handle bike parks and harsh terrain beautifully; I'm sure, once you get used the geometry and bars wider than the gap between the working class and the oligarchs and technobillionaires controlling us (oooooh, political!), you feel much more confident on those same trails you've been riding every day on something from 30 years ago instead.

But... Do I care? Does looking at one in the corner of the room, or beneath me as I ride it, fill me with admiration and excitement? Because, honestly, that's what gets me out riding: the excitement of owning the bikes I've now built. I still can't believe it half the time. I'm not trying to get faster, better. That's not what I'm in it for. I'm in it to find and build something that gets my blood pumping and brain going; to ride ancient beautiful machines built by love and skill by people who really, REALLY cared about what they were doing. It's the craft and innovation that excites me. Not how high or how far or how fast I can go with it (don't get me wrong though, I'll still smoke you out there in those woods!).

Maybe one day I'll want something modern, but I bet it closely follows old geometries and technologies, as I'd rather have someone talented build me something custom, that rides to my tastes, then invest all that money into technology that doesn't excite me.

I can imagine wanting something like that one day, something maybe a little more reliable for a certain type of ride, but right now, the only reason for going that route in my mind is to lessen the pressure and stress I'm putting daily on rare and increasingly expensive parts. But I'd still have to love it for whatever reason, and it would have to tick all those same boxes old bikes do. Because I'd rather love what I'm riding, and destroy it, then keep it locked away untouched. And all for a safer bet that leaves me cold and soft in its place beneath me.

I mean, any one of us madmen who willingly chooses to stick an old saddle on a regular rider is clearly already long since lost to this particular cause!
 
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Just got back from a road ride with my wife, on our old non-electrified bikes, saw lots of well-heeled boomers cruising around on e-bikes, very few people on 'real' bikes. BTW those comics are brilliant, boy can I relate every time I go in the garage. Bikes are good for mental health, as well as fitness. Trust me, I know.
 
I have a lot of thoughts on this, not least as someone who (goes back to look at his very first post...) only joined this forum a little over a year ago, and now has three bikes in rotation and two more builds currently on the go!
What I like about early to mid 1990s cycle tech is that there is, for me, just the right amount of technology. There is enough that it helps me attain goals, have fun cycling, be in nature, but it enabled the experience of cycling without dominating it. The tech is also completely understandable to me.

I'm sure for some people, this point came earlier. But in the early mid 1990s one still had a lot of choice in terms of how much tech you wanted to use. You could choose indexing. Or you could choose friction.

Since then, I have the feeling that cycling has been overwhelmed by the technology. This happened in all other parts of life too, see the smartphone. The tech started getting in the way of the experience, and become a reason unto itself. Do I have enough travel? Will my battery run out? Is my wattage optimized? Can I prove it on Strava etc etc.

another thought: Cyclists were both athletes and skilled operators of the machines that enabled their sport. This skill, and the practice it takes to hone, have been replaced by tech that does it for us. One of the most ridiculous justifications I have seen for electronic shifting is that it trims your front derailleur for you, so you don't have to think about it. But trimming a derailleur was a skill, that with practice, takes no thought. With downtube shifters, it's not hard to learn how to shift the back and trim the front with one hand simultaneously. Cyclists have become deskilled, and I think that is big loss for the experience of riding.
 
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Just got back from a road ride with my wife, on our old non-electrified bikes, saw lots of well-heeled boomers cruising around on e-bikes, very few people on 'real' bikes. BTW those comics are brilliant, boy can I relate every time I go in the garage. Bikes are good for mental health, as well as fitness. Trust me, I know.
It is similar here. e bikes are taking over.

And I guess that confirms the market data--e bikes are growing and growing. I am completely out of touch with the new bike market, but every once in a while I pop into a huge bike store in town because they sell tires and stems swapped off of customers' new E-Bikes for super cheap, and I see Pedelecs for 3000 Euro and up. Nothing special about these bikes. Full suspension pedalec mountain bikes are in a galaxy of unaffordability light years away.

It puts the money that goes into retro bike restoration and upkeep in perspective. And the intangible benefits you mentioned evens the entire budget, or at least that's what I tell myself.
 

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