Is bike shop and customer service an oxymoron?
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Cristian-T
Retro Guru
The shops open, Ive just so much to sort out, will take awhile. Given time it will have some retrobike reppin no doubt !
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hello captain! waves!
ok so lets have the other side response!!
i like to think i give good service at the shop, but . . . i have sat someone down on a stool in the shop, put a cup of tea in their hand and said "we're gonna have a chat, what do you think it's gonna be about?" response was "i don't know" my reply was "i think you're a ****".
now obviously that was a shock to him, i still can't believe i said it to be honest. the back story to that conversation (which ended positively with that guy becoming a sensible customer) was that he felt he got bad service in every shop he went in, he was completely unaware of how he came across to the point where his name was known locally and staff would do what they could to not sell to him for fear of bad reviews on google, claims to trading standards, threats of outing on social media etc, now obviously he is an extreme example of a bad customer. of course most people are not like that, but all retail shops/restaurants etc do suffer with "karens" from time to time.
i consider myself pretty lucky to have a good customer base and as a result seem to get a lot of referrals as a result, i rarely get complaints and when i have it's usually the result of a faulty part or a genuine mistake and when i deal with it the people are usually very happy as i sort them out "John Lewis style" meaning i try to go above and beyond.
what i will add is that sometimes people will know more than staff, for various reasons, quite often the customer knows everything about his specific stuff, but nothing generally, they'll be the guys that used to work in shops but are actually out of touch now, but then there's the internet with all the tech docs that a customer might have time to read but the shop guy is too busy servicing stuff to keep up with the new stuff that comes out that he rarely sees.
my attitude tends to be, be polite, but honest and in some cases firm, especially when it's a safety issue, i will refuse to work on some things if i think the bike won't be safe and sometimes this upsets people but i stress it's for safety reasons, usually it's when the bike is not sound and the customer refuses to have something done properly and asks for a cheap bodge, the reason i won't "bodge it" is not just the safety issue but also because when the bike fails they blame the bodge and not the fact it was in a state to start with, literally had this conversation with a customer 5 days ago, gearset on his daughters bike was dead (it was his old commuter bike) he refused to pay for a new gearset as the chain/rings/cassette were unbelievably worn, gave it to his daughter, first day she had an accident on it when the chainset slipped under load going up a hill when she was stood up on the pedals, she came off and hurt herself, luckily not too badly, that bike is back in the shop having a new gearset fitted to it.
so in conclusion, while i accept there are bad shops, bad staff and bad experiences there are also, good shops, good staff and good experiences. like any situation you need to find a place that works for you and sometimes that takes a little time.
A bit of background some of which I've mentioned before. I worked in bike shops from my teenage years until my mid-twenties. Freewheel in West Hampstead, Yellow Jersey Cycles in Camden and Edwards of Camberwell being three of them. At Freewheel I built all the Ridgebacks going off for media as well as other stuff. I've also worked as a motorcycle mechanic and a service manager. I now do something else that pays a lot more.
At school I used Lathes and milling machines and I still maintain all of my own Motorcycles including engine work and am slowly, very slowly rebuilding my pick up truck including chassis work and welding. Motorbikes that I've built engines for have even been featured in magazines so I know how to use a spanner.
Most bike mechanics are rubbish and have no idea how to fix things only how to change items. They don't have a solid grounding in mechanics or engineering and just learnt to work on their own bikes and it went that little bit further to working in a shop.
Bike shops enjoy the money brought in by the workshop yet refuse to spend any money on good quality new equipment so after a couple of years everything is worn out and it won't get replaced. Often it doesn't even take a few years as most bike specific tools are low quality and disposable, look at all of the spanners, headset and cone etc made from stamped out steel sheet.
A good example of this, I had a damaged thread on a set of Tange Big forks, easy repair for a frame builder, brass over the threads and re-cut except I couldn't find a shop with a 1-1/8th cutter and none would get one so I had to buy my own for £90. Now if I was a shop I would have bought it, charged 50% of the cost to the job and I've have one for the future but no one was willing to buy one. I've spent considerably more than that on tools for motorcycles that very rarely get used.
New bikes are low profit. Evans for a fair time were selling Cannondales at their end of season sales for less than other shops could buy them in at, no one can compete with that. Parts and the workshop are where the profits are. Less money tied up in stock and Labour charges that mean your mechanics should be bringing in somewhere in the region of 6x + their daily pay in labour alone not forgetting the profit from parts which should be in the 50-100% range. Very hard for a salesman to bring in that kind of profit every day of the week selling bikes but the workshop always will.
I could name a few Cycle shop owners who thought they were making a mint so went out and financed fast Cars and Motorbikes on the company which eventually caused the company to go bust. Money worries are always in the shadow of shop owners especially those who sell new bikes where all of their money is tied up until they sell. 50 bikes in stock at an average trade price of £300 (gross under-estimate but you get the idea) is £15000 tied up.
So, everyone in the cycle trade is depressed, they go in thinking it'll be easy money and fun then find out its an actual job where you have to work for a living. The skill levels are extremely low due to the bad pay, a mate of mine was an Evans workshop head until the financial problems they had, Wheelsmith trained etc and was on £19000 or so a year. He was skilled but how many mechanics earning that money or less are skilled?
Back to the OPs question, yes it is an oxymoron in any major city at least. Outside these areas shops with their lower rents and lower living costs can afford to maintain themselves to a higher degree and not fret so much over the money tied up in stock. As a result these shops tend to have happier staff and can invest in training and equipment. There will be exceptions but not many, lot's of new shops don't last 5 years and never get out of their initial set up debt and if they do can't refinance for new equipment.
If you don't believe me look at the shops set up just for servicing or the mobile mechanics, it's where the money, happiness and following on the good customer is in London at least.
At school I used Lathes and milling machines and I still maintain all of my own Motorcycles including engine work and am slowly, very slowly rebuilding my pick up truck including chassis work and welding. Motorbikes that I've built engines for have even been featured in magazines so I know how to use a spanner.
Most bike mechanics are rubbish and have no idea how to fix things only how to change items. They don't have a solid grounding in mechanics or engineering and just learnt to work on their own bikes and it went that little bit further to working in a shop.
Bike shops enjoy the money brought in by the workshop yet refuse to spend any money on good quality new equipment so after a couple of years everything is worn out and it won't get replaced. Often it doesn't even take a few years as most bike specific tools are low quality and disposable, look at all of the spanners, headset and cone etc made from stamped out steel sheet.
A good example of this, I had a damaged thread on a set of Tange Big forks, easy repair for a frame builder, brass over the threads and re-cut except I couldn't find a shop with a 1-1/8th cutter and none would get one so I had to buy my own for £90. Now if I was a shop I would have bought it, charged 50% of the cost to the job and I've have one for the future but no one was willing to buy one. I've spent considerably more than that on tools for motorcycles that very rarely get used.
New bikes are low profit. Evans for a fair time were selling Cannondales at their end of season sales for less than other shops could buy them in at, no one can compete with that. Parts and the workshop are where the profits are. Less money tied up in stock and Labour charges that mean your mechanics should be bringing in somewhere in the region of 6x + their daily pay in labour alone not forgetting the profit from parts which should be in the 50-100% range. Very hard for a salesman to bring in that kind of profit every day of the week selling bikes but the workshop always will.
I could name a few Cycle shop owners who thought they were making a mint so went out and financed fast Cars and Motorbikes on the company which eventually caused the company to go bust. Money worries are always in the shadow of shop owners especially those who sell new bikes where all of their money is tied up until they sell. 50 bikes in stock at an average trade price of £300 (gross under-estimate but you get the idea) is £15000 tied up.
So, everyone in the cycle trade is depressed, they go in thinking it'll be easy money and fun then find out its an actual job where you have to work for a living. The skill levels are extremely low due to the bad pay, a mate of mine was an Evans workshop head until the financial problems they had, Wheelsmith trained etc and was on £19000 or so a year. He was skilled but how many mechanics earning that money or less are skilled?
Back to the OPs question, yes it is an oxymoron in any major city at least. Outside these areas shops with their lower rents and lower living costs can afford to maintain themselves to a higher degree and not fret so much over the money tied up in stock. As a result these shops tend to have happier staff and can invest in training and equipment. There will be exceptions but not many, lot's of new shops don't last 5 years and never get out of their initial set up debt and if they do can't refinance for new equipment.
If you don't believe me look at the shops set up just for servicing or the mobile mechanics, it's where the money, happiness and following on the good customer is in London at least.
Just to round this thread up.. I ended up going to a local community operated bike workshop in Lewisham. The guy that serviced the bike was probably in his early twenties, but he was enthusiastic, appreciated my Bonty enough not to drop it into a rack of spanners - and whilst not a retro guy himself (by our standards) actually rode a nickel P7. We had a nice little chat.
Anyways.. I left the bike there, walked half an hour home, made a cup of tea.. then got a phone call from the guy in the bike shop - bike is done already. I headed back to the shop later that day and the Bonty was sitting on a stand beside the front desk, waiting for me.
Pleasant staff, reasonable cost, good quality work, super fast turnaround. Hence - will be delighted to use again and will recommend them to others. So here you all go:
https://www.thecyclerylewisham.com/
Anyways.. I left the bike there, walked half an hour home, made a cup of tea.. then got a phone call from the guy in the bike shop - bike is done already. I headed back to the shop later that day and the Bonty was sitting on a stand beside the front desk, waiting for me.
Pleasant staff, reasonable cost, good quality work, super fast turnaround. Hence - will be delighted to use again and will recommend them to others. So here you all go:
https://www.thecyclerylewisham.com/
Saw my mate this morning and I made a mistake as to his money, he was on £21,000. The shop mechanics were taken on at £16,000. Average UK wage at the time was around £30,000. To put this in perspective I can see a no responsibility no experience job answering phones on £20,000-£24,000 just around the corner from Evans in the cut.
frkl
Retro Guru
As has been said before, I just don't think the people in this forum make economic sense for local bike shops. And most shops would probably rather sell someone a new bike than repair an old one, so that alone makes us not really ideal customers.
On the one hand, there probably just aren't enough customers in a city, for sure a town, who want to buy the kind of stuff I will get new--quill stems, silver polished stuff, etc--to make rent. Online stores can stock it because they have a bigger customer base to sell to.
On the other, i really buy mostly used or NOS parts, and stores don't generally like used--too unpredictable and too much expensive labor involved--and NOS has the customer base problem without widely cast delivery business.
We are a difficult to predict group in terms of spending--we each have very different priorities and are willing to plunk down big sums but on hard to predict things. That is not an ideal customer base.
There was a shop where I live with big room with 4 bikes stands, walls of tools, and bins of (dirty) used parts for sale, where you paid 5 Euro an hour or something. I used to go there for things like chasing and facing BB shells and figuring out seat post diameter I needed (guilt free trial and error, everything was scratched anyway, and sometimes there would be a nice post in there for cheap, but if not, you were paying for the service, anyway). But they stopped when Corona happened and haven't opened up again. i hope they do soon.
On the one hand, there probably just aren't enough customers in a city, for sure a town, who want to buy the kind of stuff I will get new--quill stems, silver polished stuff, etc--to make rent. Online stores can stock it because they have a bigger customer base to sell to.
On the other, i really buy mostly used or NOS parts, and stores don't generally like used--too unpredictable and too much expensive labor involved--and NOS has the customer base problem without widely cast delivery business.
We are a difficult to predict group in terms of spending--we each have very different priorities and are willing to plunk down big sums but on hard to predict things. That is not an ideal customer base.
There was a shop where I live with big room with 4 bikes stands, walls of tools, and bins of (dirty) used parts for sale, where you paid 5 Euro an hour or something. I used to go there for things like chasing and facing BB shells and figuring out seat post diameter I needed (guilt free trial and error, everything was scratched anyway, and sometimes there would be a nice post in there for cheap, but if not, you were paying for the service, anyway). But they stopped when Corona happened and haven't opened up again. i hope they do soon.
Chopper the ex Copper
Alpinestars Fan
The only thing I buy from an LBS is the tools to enable me to do it myself.
Cristian-T
Retro Guru
Crikey Moses alive. “Most bike mechanics are rubbish” is a massive generalisation and a little unfair. Maybe if your talking about a percentage of younger halfords employees, but hell, we all have to start somewhere (I know, I did in 87’ - followed by a 3 yr engineering apprenticeship so I hope I qualify!)
You will find the majority of well run and successful bikeshops have well trained staff that are paid not a bad wage (location depending obviously).
On the flip side, in recent years there has been a huge influx of enthusiasts suddenly becoming ‘bike mechanics.. more often than not flying the Cytech flag (learning a lifetimes worth of experience on a week long course they are not, and this doesn’t include fettling with your own bikes)
- I am by no means saying thats a bad thing, more the opposite, because cycling is a true passion business and if you can make a dime and a dollar from it then kudos! There’s a ton of bikes out there that need sorting. People just wana ride !
For us retro guys, it’s pot luck. Shops are under pressure, often understaffed, and these days especially either under stocked or grossly over stocked.
pop into my shop you’ll get nothing but retro-love. (Staffed fine, and medium stocked with bikes!) although a part timer would be nice.
I found this week particularly difficult. Had in a 1990 Cannondale SM500 complete original with full Suntour X1, which was massively worn out. Whole drivetrain needed replacement and keeping it original as per customers wishes was/is a tough one. The other was a guy who nabbed a pristine 96’ Marin Rocky Ridge for £60 from a local charity setup. Just to ride to work on! Im on the hunt for something more modern for him for a swap out. (It was way big for him)
Peace
Cristian
You will find the majority of well run and successful bikeshops have well trained staff that are paid not a bad wage (location depending obviously).
On the flip side, in recent years there has been a huge influx of enthusiasts suddenly becoming ‘bike mechanics.. more often than not flying the Cytech flag (learning a lifetimes worth of experience on a week long course they are not, and this doesn’t include fettling with your own bikes)
- I am by no means saying thats a bad thing, more the opposite, because cycling is a true passion business and if you can make a dime and a dollar from it then kudos! There’s a ton of bikes out there that need sorting. People just wana ride !
For us retro guys, it’s pot luck. Shops are under pressure, often understaffed, and these days especially either under stocked or grossly over stocked.
pop into my shop you’ll get nothing but retro-love. (Staffed fine, and medium stocked with bikes!) although a part timer would be nice.
I found this week particularly difficult. Had in a 1990 Cannondale SM500 complete original with full Suntour X1, which was massively worn out. Whole drivetrain needed replacement and keeping it original as per customers wishes was/is a tough one. The other was a guy who nabbed a pristine 96’ Marin Rocky Ridge for £60 from a local charity setup. Just to ride to work on! Im on the hunt for something more modern for him for a swap out. (It was way big for him)
Peace
Cristian
