I don't get why some people don't get ebikes.

[greencat]

I'm sorry but I simply don't believe some of those numbers.



Who eats 36 steaks a year ? I consider myself a meat eater, I like a steak but I never eat anything like that many in a year which means someone else is eating more steaks to account for the steaks I'm not eating, then you have the vegetarians and the vegans share as well so someone somewhere must be eating steak everyday for the numbers to balance.

Why pick on the beef industry when the automotive industry is a much better target given bikes and cars are both forms of transport ?

You got me, it's not quite 36. The UK population eats 2.4 billion steaks:

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/british-meateaters-eat-2-5-billion-beef-burgers-b1946149.html
Divide by 67m which is the approx UK population at the time:

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopula...tins/annualmidyearpopulationestimates/mid2021
and you get 35.8. And yeah, as a vegetarian for 35+ years, someone's eating my share of them. Vegetarianism is a minority sport though (roughly 10% of the population are either vegan or vegetarian. They just feel more prevalent because they'll tell you ):

https://www.finder.com/uk/stats-facts/uk-diet-trends
Someone eating a bit less than steak a week doesn't feel widely off the mark outside of my fellow hippy plant eating friends, family and colleagues.

I choose steaks because that's the comparison the video I linked to earlier made - and it does demonstrate the carbon impact of some of the foods we eat (posters were previously sceptical that human + extra food + bike was more emissions than human + less food + ebike). . I have no axe to grind re: meat eating. My missus would be an obligate carnivore given the chance and imo some people cannot thrive without some meat consumption perhaps due to genetics etc. She is positively crawling up the walls with cravings after two weeks without it. Personally, I cannot tolerate many of the meat substitutes or most dairy products so could never become vegan.

I hear you re: bike maintenance costs, but the Trek report cited in the video does talk about lifecycle emissions which presumably has a figure for maintenance emissions - and they are also assuming a bike (of either kind) lasts approx 20K km. That doesn't feel wildly off the mark. At my peak, I was probably doing 10K km per year - and a heavily used bike might be pretty much done in 2-3 years. I have to believe that manufacturing replacement brake pads, chains etc is rather less than the 100+ kg of CO2 it takes to make a brand new bike. I'd be surprised if it was more than 10kg per 10K miles, but have no stats to back that up. Eating one less steak per 10K miles probably more than covers them.

But yes, cars are pretty bad CO2 wise and humans eat a lot, and meat is a big part of the footprint. Regarding population, it's is beginning to peak or is on a downward trend in many countries. IIRC (and I'll let you google those stats if you find it similarly incredulous), China looks to have peaked already - about 7 years ahead of schedule. Many western countries are already below replacement rate in terms of births.

 

[synchronicity]

You seem to be forgetting that money has a footprint. No matter what you buy, even if it's a service not a product, somewhere down the track, the environment pays.

The more you spend, generally speaking, the worse it is for the environment.

Any time you buy something, anything, it's essentially a form of trade. There is the buyer and the seller. But the seller then uses that money to go and BUY something ELSE for himself! Or save/invest it. In which case the bank has access to it and invests in other businesses (who also sell products, or even if they are selling services, which need products to supply their services).

And even if you buy a service not a product, does the one providing the service then go and buy a service for themselves? Or do they then go and buy a product? And if they then do go and buy a service, is that a service that is going to support someone else selling more products? Probably.

I for one fail to see how an £8000 ebike is 'good' for the environment. Better than a non-ebike costing half that.

You keep talking about steaks and food as if that's all that matters.

For one thing, where does the money go?
When you buy a nukeproof bike for £8000, what do the company directors in turn spend that money on?

Who owns Nukeproof? SIGNA Sports United. Who is the CEO? Stephan Zoll.
"SIGNA Sports United had revenue of $1.11B in the twelve months ending March 31, 2023"

I'm willing to be that Stephan Zoll is not a vegan. I'm willing to bet he owns several high-performance sports cars, flies around a lot, and has a sizeable footprint.

You can't really buy your way out of climate change & environmental destruction.

 

[FluffyChicken]

No doubt Steak may also include mince and burgers equivalence.
They are just ground up and mushed steaks.
I'm not going to look if that is what they are meaning.

 

[bikeworkshop]

An electric car is about twice a efficient as an ICE car.
That's like 2% if you consider you didn't need to take 2 tons of metal with you to the dentist!

An ebike uses a few percent of the energy a car uses, so if it replaced a car trip, that's progress.

However, if an ebike is used to bring a bloke with no skills, manners or appreciation of nature at 25mph into the remote places I like to ride my bike (leaving his SUV in the car park) then I am further saddened by humanity's careless encroachment into the wilderness.

Everything has a carbon footprint, but some footprints are a lot bigger than others. Hopefully we do what we can.

 

[greencat]

You seem to be forgetting that money has a footprint. No matter what you buy, even if it's a service not a product, somewhere down the track, the environment pays.

The more you spend, generally speaking, the worse it is for the environment.

Any time you buy something, anything, it's essentially a form of trade. There is the buyer and the seller. But the seller then uses that money to go and BUY something ELSE for himself! Or save/invest it. In which case the bank has access to it and invests in other businesses (who also sell products, or even if they are selling services, which need products to supply their services).

And even if you buy a service not a product, does the one providing the service then go and buy a service for themselves? Or do they then go and buy a product? And if they then do go and buy a service, is that a service that is going to support someone else selling more products? Probably.

I for one fail to see how an £8000 ebike is 'good' for the environment. Better than a non-ebike costing half that.

You keep talking about steaks and food as if that's all that matters.

For one thing, where does the money go?
When you buy a nukeproof bike for £8000, what do the company directors in turn spend that money on?

Who owns Nukeproof? SIGNA Sports United. Who is the CEO? Stephan Zoll.
"SIGNA Sports United had revenue of $1.11B in the twelve months ending March 31, 2023"

I'm willing to be that Stephan Zoll is not a vegan. I'm willing to bet he owns several high-performance sports cars, flies around a lot, and has a sizeable footprint.

You can't really buy your way out of climate change & environmental destruction.

I'm not forgetting anything. You have introduced a new dimension around money flows where it frankly it becomes impossible to track or consider what might have happened to the money you spent. Perhaps much of the £8K went on paying the salaries of those who built and sold the bike - and they in turn indirectly, perhaps several people removed, bought some services or goods from you (like those promoted in your sig) or someone you know, and so on.

I mentioned food because there's clearly a comparison to be made in energy terms, and that's what the original video I shared used. There are, of course, other comparisons to be made. Someone challenged me to show my workings so I did.

I agree spending money does have an impact. So does not spending it, as it is used by whichever facility you are storing it in. Which bank etc you hold your money and investments in apparently makes more difference than a ton of lifestyle changes, inc what food we eat.

The best option is simply to be as intentional as possible in your spending and saving, and clearly some choices are better than others. I've never spent more than £500 on an ebike or conversion. You certainly don't need to spend £8K on an ebike to have fun. But if you are spending £8K on something, there also more carbon intensive ways of doing so e.g short haul flights, etc. There are less carbon intensive ways eg outfitting your home with solar panels, giving it to an environmental charity. Personally, I'd rather spend £8K on solar panels or investing in renewable energy companies than spending it on an ebike. Perhaps you are the same. Or not. In either case, we can't know what happens to the money afterwards, a few exchanges later.

Of course, it is generally better to keep and maintain what you have (not true in some cases, eg some old power hungry appliances should be scrapped in favour of more efficient ones). But whatever you do or don't do, your money is doing something which can be more or less harmful to the environment. Unless you keep it under the bed. IIRC, the band KLF burnt a million pounds for similar reasons.

Frankly, I think it's time for me to duck out of this thread for now as it has become something of a moving target (and consideration of global money flows is beyond my level of expertise and curiosity) - and believe it or not, I'm not a salesperson for ebikes - simply open minded enough to consider them a useful part of the low carbon transport mix which the current evidence seems to suggest they are. I appreciate for some this challenges deeply held beliefs, and that's OK too.

 

[bikeworkshop]

Every year we are offered... and buy... high end (i mean 2k+) Road bikes that have been ridden maybe 200 miles. The reason for sale?
The owner has bought a new bike.

That's a large footprint for the first owner, but some of those bikes go on to do mile after mile in the hands of subsequent owners.

Of course as a sporty bike they aren't often replacing a more energy intensive form of transport, but they are sometimes, and health has a positive impact, and maybe they go ride their bike rather than have a weekend in Prague.

Swings and roundabouts.
Both are dangerous places for bicycles, I always avoid the former.

 

[al-onestare]

Who owns Nukeproof? SIGNA Sports United. Who is the CEO? Stephan Zoll.
"SIGNA Sports United had revenue of $1.11B in the twelve months ending March 31, 2023"

Good to see you paid zero attention to the thread that was locked On the very first page (and many after) as well...

 

[synchronicity]

Well I know it's not worth that now. But don't you think the people at the top still spent on their toys?

 

[davidj]

I bought my e bike in March 2016. It proved to be an excellent car alternative for shopping till COVID happened in March 2020. At that point I had to start shopping for aging family members as well, and a car was the only option.

Without the need to lug shopping up hill from Tesco's I reverted to my analogue bikes for the majority of my cycling. That was untill last November. I sold my ageing Orange P7 winter bike in the summer of 2023 on the basis that I had to use my dream build Clockwork with Hope & XTR or I would be too old to appreciate it. The Clockwork is a dream to ride. But in the wind and rain, in a Northern hilly part of the country and my 60th year, the eBike came to the front.

It's 8 years old, needed less maintenance than every other bike I have ever owned. Probably done more miles than any other bike I have owned. Certainly carried much more weight, my growing physique , plus up to 36 cans of Carling up hill from Tesco's to my home with me laughing all the way.

I don't love it like I did with all the many analogue bikes I have owned. But I admire it, I appreciate it. It weighs a ton till your turn a pedal and then it is as light as a feather.

Photos are on the day I bought it and today as it sits outside the pub waiting to take me home.

 

[FluffyChicken]

I don't get why people call a bike an analogue bikes. What's it got to do with waves, it's not as if other bikes are digital, on/off or 0/1s, it just a motor assist. If you do think it is waves do to the circular motion, that is true, but it is the same for e-bikes/pedalec.

And that speedo on my old old bike is digital.

It's the stupidist thing I've heard in a while.