Holdsworth Frame Numbers

[531Man]

Hi, I know earlier suggestions included this - but have you had the forks out to check if that letter and number patten is repeated on the steerer tube?
Could well be useful.
Regards, Robin

 

[sidolis]

Re:

Hi Robin - thanks for the sensible suggestion but no, I have not done this yet. I've only recently moved house and don't have the tools to do it easily -- indeed, it's some years since I've ever done that to any bike so would probably ask my mechanic friend to do it haha.

Maybe when I need put it in for service I'll ask them to do this... sorry to be so useless! If I do manage to get it done I'll post an update of course.

 

[dwscrimshaw]

Re: Re:

From looking at CB and Witcomb numbering systems it seems unlikely to be either. Does anyone know if anyone ever did serials with letters at the start? I know very little about this but have never seen one like that in all the stuff I've looked at.

I didn't get any further with information on Tonard but still wondering if that's possible? See my post five up from here.

Letters did appear occasionally on Holdsworth numbers, typically with shop frames, K was used for stock builds and sometimes other letters for builders initial. The wrap over stay is typical of a shop build but, the shop stopped building frames mid 70's. A curved rear break bridge is typical on early Holdsworth it went straight latter, again around mid 70's. If Holdsworth 5D number this would be 50's and 60's for CB. if post 1976 should be a 6 digit number starting with 0.

I can't place that BB lug work as a Holdsworth, may be others might recognise it as Holsdworth or CB. Would be interested to know the shape of the bridge. the Key may be to look for a frame builder that has the correct combination of BB shell, brake bridge and seat stay. then look at their numbering system.

 

[dwscrimshaw]

Following on from last post and having looked at the pictures again, I am not seeing this as a Holdsworth; the features and number does not tie up. The pump peg is not typical and often seen on 531C frames in which case the Reynalds decal is wrong? The head badge decal, straight break bridge and under BB cable run would suggest it should have a six digit number, which is not the case. Early 6D frames without rear break cable eyes typically retained the over BB gear cable run. I also think Holdsowrth stopped wrap over stays when the shop stopped building frames, ~1975.

It does have a Jackson decal I believe suggesting they may have re-painted it. Not sure why they would put Holdsworth decals on unless originally built under contract. Not sure they did that either.

As said earlier, look for a builder using the features mentioned above around late 70's/early 80's. Trust others can contribute to confirm/correct this view.

 

[dwscrimshaw]

One last thought on this one. Is this one a Roy Thame frame confused with a Holdsworth at some point. I notice there are a few RT's listed on Ebay, one with a wrap over seat stay. The others have similar features to yours, but not all on the same frame.

Roy Thame frames started with Holdsworth shop style numbers. We have several from 1969 and all the shop numbers in the database for 1975 are Roy Thames starting with 75... After this he used his own numbers. One of the 69 frames seems to have RT decals and also rivet holds for a head badge not used on RT's. So either this is badged incorrectly or RT used std Holdsworth shop head tube and cover them up with his decal.

One of the ebay frames has a shop style number and one has a latter number which has a letter and then 5 digits. There is a mix of curved and straight brake bridges and similar BB lugs. I think the use of the pump pip was latter than the frames here and Holdsworth too would have drop the head badge by then. Might be worth researching this option and see when Roy stopped building frames, he might have added the pump pip on his frames where Holdsworth typically did'nt.

 

[sidolis]

I've just done some research around Thame and posts on other forums, and although I can see similarities, the serial numbers don't really seem to stack up. The best I got was this thread on Holdsworth frame builders doing their own jobs which suggests maybe the A in mine is the second name of the builder...? But it seems a bit of a shot in the dark?

https://forum.cyclinguk.org/viewtopic.php?t=104243

 

[dwscrimshaw]

Yes, I think your frame is significantly later than these and yes it was the case that some initials were added. All frame builders used to use similar tubes and lugs so its a case of looking for the distinctive touches. There is a wide variation in the frames on ebay, but may be later things got more consistent.

 

[Wileyone]

Re: Re:

From looking at CB and Witcomb numbering systems it seems unlikely to be either. Does anyone know if anyone ever did serials with letters at the start? I know very little about this but have never seen one like that in all the stuff I've looked at.

I didn't get any further with information on Tonard but still wondering if that's possible? See my post five up from here.

Letters did appear occasionally on Holdsworth numbers, typically with shop frames, K was used for stock builds and sometimes other letters for builders initial. The wrap over stay is typical of a shop build but, the shop stopped building frames mid 70's. A curved rear break bridge is typical on early Holdsworth it went straight latter, again around mid 70's. If Holdsworth 5D number this would be 50's and 60's for CB. if post 1976 should be a 6 digit number starting with 0.

I can't place that BB lug work as a Holdsworth, may be others might recognise it as Holsdworth or CB. Would be interested to know the shape of the bridge. the Key may be to look for a frame builder that has the correct combination of BB shell, brake bridge and seat stay. then look at their numbering system.

Did Roy T actually build frames? I was under the impression that he was more of a"Boss" than a builder.

 

[CBguy]

Re:

Roy Thame frames were mainly built by TJ Quick and from what I understand Roy did no build the frames himself. The Thame marque continued into the early 80’s when Roy became ill and he decided to cut back. Quick remained active well in to his 80’s. There is a recent addition to Quick biography on CL.

 

[sidolis]

Re: Re:

From looking at CB and Witcomb numbering systems it seems unlikely to be either. Does anyone know if anyone ever did serials with letters at the start? I know very little about this but have never seen one like that in all the stuff I've looked at.

I didn't get any further with information on Tonard but still wondering if that's possible? See my post five up from here.

Letters did appear occasionally on Holdsworth numbers, typically with shop frames, K was used for stock builds and sometimes other letters for builders initial. The wrap over stay is typical of a shop build but, the shop stopped building frames mid 70's. A curved rear break bridge is typical on early Holdsworth it went straight latter, again around mid 70's. If Holdsworth 5D number this would be 50's and 60's for CB. if post 1976 should be a 6 digit number starting with 0.

I can't place that BB lug work as a Holdsworth, may be others might recognise it as Holsdworth or CB. Would be interested to know the shape of the bridge. the Key may be to look for a frame builder that has the correct combination of BB shell, brake bridge and seat stay. then look at their numbering system.

Did Roy T actually build frames? I was under the impression that he was more of a"Boss" than a builder.

Hi Wileyone I see you found this post after reading my other on Bike Forums -- they won't let me post pictures but you can see them above here: viewtopic.php?p=2989686#p2989686

As you can see, the serial runs east-west, much like this Roy Thame that dwscrimshaw pointed me to on ebay: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Roy-Thame-19 ... Swn0Bd25o1

So looking more like a Tommy Quick under Roy Thame? [EDIT: This would be as a Holdsworth "shop job"? Thus explaining the decals?]

dwscrimshaw has pointed me to https://nkilgariff.com/ for serials but it doesn't seem to have much on the Thame frames (possible I am just missing the bleeding obvious!)...