Holdsworth Frame Numbers
- Thread starter dwscrimshaw
- Start date
It all seems to match the frame description here.
Russ-style forks, fluted chain stays and rounded seat stays, Chater Lea fittings (at least the BB shell is clearly Chater Lea marked).
It also looks remarkably similar to the one in the catalogue.
I have however e-mailed the VCC's marquee enthusiast of Holdsworth and waiting to know more from him.
Russ-style forks, fluted chain stays and rounded seat stays, Chater Lea fittings (at least the BB shell is clearly Chater Lea marked).
It also looks remarkably similar to the one in the catalogue.
I have however e-mailed the VCC's marquee enthusiast of Holdsworth and waiting to know more from him.
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I agree looks more like early 30's. Fits 1934 catalog description of when Cyclone was a track frame only.
Dave Scrimshaw and myself spent some time trying to sort out serial number(s) on frame from eBay ad. On eBay pics there is the number 0520 on seat lug and 1563 on BB. We came to the most likely conclusion that 0520 represented the serial as this placement is as used on other similar vintage frames. This low number would also help place to c.1934. Also explanation of 1563, if not related to BB manufacture, could be that this is an early 60's renovation number. Head badge to me looks newer or perhaps a repro (I stand to be corrected) as believe at this early point badge was brass rather than aluminum which appeared later in 40's. If a number as well on steerer tube that may clarify.
I am no expert re these early vintage frames and will be very interesting to see where VCC expert dates.
Doug
Dave Scrimshaw and myself spent some time trying to sort out serial number(s) on frame from eBay ad. On eBay pics there is the number 0520 on seat lug and 1563 on BB. We came to the most likely conclusion that 0520 represented the serial as this placement is as used on other similar vintage frames. This low number would also help place to c.1934. Also explanation of 1563, if not related to BB manufacture, could be that this is an early 60's renovation number. Head badge to me looks newer or perhaps a repro (I stand to be corrected) as believe at this early point badge was brass rather than aluminum which appeared later in 40's. If a number as well on steerer tube that may clarify.
I am no expert re these early vintage frames and will be very interesting to see where VCC expert dates.
Doug
dwscrimshaw
Retro Guru
Thanks for the comments, glad to hear you won the auction, I will be interested to hear the views from VCC.
If I could clarify the way I have set up the spread sheet. The first page is meant to document the information found, this was an ebay add and the date given was 1939. The second page of the spread sheet is my 'attempt' to apply some logic to the numbers found, so I will adjust them to fit the predictions set up around some know good dates. Interestingly I have put this in as 1934. To be honest with only 9 pre-war numbers to date I have very little to go on especially as 3 of them are based on a comment in the kilraff site with a 4 year window.
This number is interesting in that it is very low, in fact the lowest found so far if we leave out #'s 01-03. the other pre-war numbers are well up in the 1000's so I would 'expect' this to be early 30's.It is also interesting in that it has a leading zero to make it 4 digits. There are very few pre-war numbers around and not much other documentation to make any predictions on. My current opinion is that the pre-war numbers were the start on the 5 digit system that ran up to 1976 with a break in the early 60's and the war years. The post war numbers are becoming clear, but pre-war is very much speculation.
Pls let me know what you get from the VCC I would be interested to know were they place this. I was also puzzled by the count outs on the seat stay joints to the seat tube, not seen this before.
If I could clarify the way I have set up the spread sheet. The first page is meant to document the information found, this was an ebay add and the date given was 1939. The second page of the spread sheet is my 'attempt' to apply some logic to the numbers found, so I will adjust them to fit the predictions set up around some know good dates. Interestingly I have put this in as 1934. To be honest with only 9 pre-war numbers to date I have very little to go on especially as 3 of them are based on a comment in the kilraff site with a 4 year window.
This number is interesting in that it is very low, in fact the lowest found so far if we leave out #'s 01-03. the other pre-war numbers are well up in the 1000's so I would 'expect' this to be early 30's.It is also interesting in that it has a leading zero to make it 4 digits. There are very few pre-war numbers around and not much other documentation to make any predictions on. My current opinion is that the pre-war numbers were the start on the 5 digit system that ran up to 1976 with a break in the early 60's and the war years. The post war numbers are becoming clear, but pre-war is very much speculation.
Pls let me know what you get from the VCC I would be interested to know were they place this. I was also puzzled by the count outs on the seat stay joints to the seat tube, not seen this before.
Actually we have one fact wrong.
Cyclone was built as a path up until 1936 for sure.
I own the 1936 catalogue and it shows the Cyclone as a path/road bike or frameset only: https://1drv.ms/f/s!As8SZOqzOEnHtNlDSqhQTbqioI4MAw
totally forgot about that piece of information.
I still think the one I've won is an earlier one (1934 or 1935) as in this catalogue there is no mention of the Chater Lea fittings for the Cyclone
(if we still assume this is a Cyclone frameset, which I think it is given it seems to be the only path/track option)
Actually scratch that, the Cyclone was sold up until 1937 (it's road only in the 1938 catalogue) also as a path with the option of Chater Lea fitting (it clearly shows on the page even! so blind I am).
So, to summarise, this looks like a 1934-1937 Cyclone path with Chater Lea fittings.
Cyclone was built as a path up until 1936 for sure.
I own the 1936 catalogue and it shows the Cyclone as a path/road bike or frameset only: https://1drv.ms/f/s!As8SZOqzOEnHtNlDSqhQTbqioI4MAw
totally forgot about that piece of information.
I still think the one I've won is an earlier one (1934 or 1935) as in this catalogue there is no mention of the Chater Lea fittings for the Cyclone
(if we still assume this is a Cyclone frameset, which I think it is given it seems to be the only path/track option)
Actually scratch that, the Cyclone was sold up until 1937 (it's road only in the 1938 catalogue) also as a path with the option of Chater Lea fitting (it clearly shows on the page even! so blind I am).
So, to summarise, this looks like a 1934-1937 Cyclone path with Chater Lea fittings.
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CBguy":1vl7w6kh said:
Actually quite the opposite I think ? According to this: http://www.nkilgariff.com/Aluminium.htm
Aluminium was scarcely available after the war, which is when brass badge was used for a bit. Before that it was readily available.
However the same page states:
So I think it could have been used before the war, and from a few years after the war until they've switched to the badge we all know and that later became a transfer.
Feedback?
Hi anidel,
I've previously read Kilgariff's page on 1946 aluminum head badges.
( http://www.nkilgariff.com/Aluminium.htm ) I interpreted this page as this style aluminum head badges were not being used prior to war and were only used immediately early after the war (1946). (Going to brass after that.) I have looked at few pre war frames that Dave has on spreadsheet and there is a "late 30's Typhoon" with what appears to be a brass head badge of same design. Interesting it also has serial (4913) placed on seat lug as yours and similar lugs plus fork altho different seat stay "eyes". See: viewtopic.php?f=12&t=139293&start=10
There is also a "late 30's Cyclone" (5470) in Dave's list with a similar brass head badge yet it appears to be applied over a decal - so hard to say re originality.
I haven't seen any examples of aluminum head badges pre war. Not that there actually was and Kilgariff was mistaken.
Besides Kilgariff's 1946 example of an aluminum head badge I have seen examples of same on a 1949 LaQuelda and a 1952 Zephyr which are located on Classic Lightweights under Reader's Bikes. Also examples of a brass and aluminum badges of same design on Velobase under Holdsworth Badges. FYI, after researching badges a couple years ago, I placed a very good repro aluminum head badge on my own '51 Holdsworth Sirocco that I purchased from HLLoyd's. (Original smaller and rare brass head badge of a distinct design for the Sirocco and Cyclone (only used for a couple of years) would have been impossible to find and I had seen the aluminum badge being used on CL examples above - so that is what I went with.)
So not to say yours is not only example known (to us) of an aluminum head badge used pre war.
I guess the near perfect paint, decals and chrome on an 83 year old frame makes me suspicious re it's originality. Not that it isn't and jus" sayin' ! Other clues might be Reynold's sticker - HLLoyd's says that style deal has been found on a "warranted" 1938 frame so that is pretty close. Wonder when the "Bonderized" decal and bonderization would have first been used? Although not to say could have been applied later.
Again I have no first hand pre war vintage Holdsworth knowledge and not a lot to look at on internet. Getting into speculation. Will be very interesting to read what VCC marque expert contributes.
Beautiful frame!
Doug
I've previously read Kilgariff's page on 1946 aluminum head badges.
( http://www.nkilgariff.com/Aluminium.htm ) I interpreted this page as this style aluminum head badges were not being used prior to war and were only used immediately early after the war (1946). (Going to brass after that.) I have looked at few pre war frames that Dave has on spreadsheet and there is a "late 30's Typhoon" with what appears to be a brass head badge of same design. Interesting it also has serial (4913) placed on seat lug as yours and similar lugs plus fork altho different seat stay "eyes". See: viewtopic.php?f=12&t=139293&start=10
There is also a "late 30's Cyclone" (5470) in Dave's list with a similar brass head badge yet it appears to be applied over a decal - so hard to say re originality.
I haven't seen any examples of aluminum head badges pre war. Not that there actually was and Kilgariff was mistaken.
Besides Kilgariff's 1946 example of an aluminum head badge I have seen examples of same on a 1949 LaQuelda and a 1952 Zephyr which are located on Classic Lightweights under Reader's Bikes. Also examples of a brass and aluminum badges of same design on Velobase under Holdsworth Badges. FYI, after researching badges a couple years ago, I placed a very good repro aluminum head badge on my own '51 Holdsworth Sirocco that I purchased from HLLoyd's. (Original smaller and rare brass head badge of a distinct design for the Sirocco and Cyclone (only used for a couple of years) would have been impossible to find and I had seen the aluminum badge being used on CL examples above - so that is what I went with.)
So not to say yours is not only example known (to us) of an aluminum head badge used pre war.
I guess the near perfect paint, decals and chrome on an 83 year old frame makes me suspicious re it's originality. Not that it isn't and jus" sayin' ! Other clues might be Reynold's sticker - HLLoyd's says that style deal has been found on a "warranted" 1938 frame so that is pretty close. Wonder when the "Bonderized" decal and bonderization would have first been used? Although not to say could have been applied later.
Again I have no first hand pre war vintage Holdsworth knowledge and not a lot to look at on internet. Getting into speculation. Will be very interesting to read what VCC marque expert contributes.
Beautiful frame!
Doug
