Holdsworth Frame Numbers

[dwscrimshaw]

Re: Re:

Just had a look at PerB's link. Just to clarify, I see a Yellowish Green 'Pro', a Blue 'Pro', and some detail shots of what looks like a Grey 'Special'?
Looking at dwscimshaw's provisional(?) ascribing of (up to) a thousand frames a year (I am guessing all high-end ones- i.e. 'Pros') made in the first half of the '70s under the four-digit system, the fact that both these 'Pros' numbers start with a '4' would make them both 1974? I can't tell from the photos, but the absence of brazed on bottle cage bosses might give a useful 'not after' date for these frames. For Holdsworth, I'd say look for the year that braze-on bottle cage bosses became 'de rigeur' in the Continental Pro peloton, and add a 'season'? My memory says '1975' or thereabouts.

Thanks, Still not sure about the first digit being the year for these early 70's 4D numbers, any fix on date from frame features would be preferable. We do seem to see a number of Holdsworth variants from the early 70's with 4D numbers suggesting a distinct group here, but may be too early to draw any definite conclusion. This group also seems to be included in the new 6D system post 76.

 

[torqueless]

Re:

any fix on date from frame features would be preferable.

Well... here's the thing.. concerning these 'Pros' ..
The form of the massed-start road bike was, afaik, more or less as if set in stone throughout the first half of the '70s. With hindsight, it was a sort of benevolent stagnation, or maybe a high-water mark? I'm not sure there would be any change, other than cosmetic, between one year and the next? So really we're left with nothing but the serial number..
If anyone knows different I'd be glad to hear about it..

 

[CBguy]

Re: Early 70!s special numbers

Apparently these special frames ordered by other shops for branding during early 70's and carried on in new factory were made to requested specs. For instance re Hardings I have had a discussion with a fellow via Bike Forums who worked at the Harding shop in California and I quote;
"The Holdsworth bikes were Harding specs licensed to Holdsworth - so angles and dimensions could be different from other Holdsworth lines. On serial numbering for the Holdsworth Hardings - they were production stamped by Holdsworth"
http://www.bikeforums.net/classic-vinta ... ilt-2.html

The early 70's special "4D" numbers perhaps approximated 1000 frames per year, hence the appearance of the each number commencing with single digit year. Just as likely it was a simple sequential sequence. Hopefully as more numbers become available methodology will become clearer.

 

[torqueless]

Re:

But the chances are that the difference between say, Harding specs, and Holdsworth specs, amounted to a quarter of an inch tubing here or there? The kind of nuance it is almost impossible to discern from an internet picture.

The OP's frame in your link appears to be '2520', so, (assuming production was close to a thousand frames a year) well over a thousand frames before the two '4***' frames at Perb' link. Whether the 4digit number system is sequential or 'first digit=year', that would likely put it around '72.

I guess at some point during the '70s Holdsworth provided the 'Pro' model with brazed on bottom bracket cable guides, but that might not have been until after '75, either. Again, the two '4***' frames at Perb's link both appear to still be using the bolt-on chrome cable guides, as does PerB's own '49**' DBS linked further upthread.

 

[darker]

Holdsworth Reynolds 531 Frame??

I recently acquired this bike frame and can't seem to find any info on it. I believe it may be a Holdsworth frame??

I wouldn't use parts as reference, I put them on during build.

Bike:
-Supposably Reynolds 531
-Campagnolo dropouts
-27mm seatpost
-Prugnat type s lugs
-RGF BB shell
-Fastback seat stay
-Forks '14377' only serial I could find

Any information would be great?

Cheers,
darker

 

[torqueless]

Re:

Well, I could be wrong, but there's nothing about your frame that shouts 'Holdsworth' to me. Close-ups of the seat cluster, rear brake bridge, and any relief for the chain/sprockets at the inside bottom of the driveside seatstay/chainstay might ring a bell with someone.
With that fork-bend and geometry I'd guess this to be an 'Italia' styled frame from the early-mid sixties. Holdsworth did 'Italias', but so did a lot of other builders. The fact that you can find no serial number on the frame itself suggests three alternative possibilities:
1. For some reason it never had one.
2. The fork is not original to the frame.
3. The bottom bracket shell has been replaced at some point in time.

Some builders use(d) a numbering system where either the first two or last two digits indicate the year of build. Given the styling of the frame/fork it is highly unlikely that it dates from 1977, so I'm guessing that the serial number on the steerer is five digit sequential.

 

[dwscrimshaw]

Re: Re:

Well, I could be wrong, but there's nothing about your frame that shouts 'Holdsworth' to me. Close-ups of the seat cluster, rear brake bridge, and any relief for the chain/sprockets at the inside bottom of the driveside seatstay/chainstay might ring a bell with someone.
With that fork-bend and geometry I'd guess this to be an 'Italia' styled frame from the early-mid sixties. Holdsworth did 'Italias', but so did a lot of other builders. The fact that you can find no serial number on the frame itself suggests three alternative possibilities:
1. For some reason it never had one.
2. The fork is not original to the frame.
3. The bottom bracket shell has been replaced at some point in time.

Some builders use(d) a numbering system where either the first two or last two digits indicate the year of build. Given the styling of the frame/fork it is highly unlikely that it dates from 1977, so I'm guessing that the serial number on the steerer is five digit sequential.

I am glad you said that as I was of the same opinion about Holdsworth origins.

 

[torqueless]

Re:

Just to clarify, I think this frame does have its original forks. No reason to think otherwise in this case. The work around the ends of the stays, and the ends of the fork blades, is distinctive, (i.e. it is not the usual 'dome',) and there doesn't appear to be a mismatch between the one and the other.

 

[anidel]

I have noticed this has been added to the spreadsheet. However I believe is more from 1934 than from 1939.
I have e-mailed VCC Hodsworth's marquee enthusiast to pick his brain on this.

I have, fyi, won that auction and I'll be hopefully receiving it soon.

 

[keithglos]

Re:

Anidel

The Holdworth track frame looks spot on 1939, look forward to seeing detail close up pics.

Keith