dwscrimshaw
Retro Guru
Thanks, always better to have the pictures
Holdsworth Frame Numbers
- Thread starter dwscrimshaw
- Start date
Eric,
69387, I agree certainly has the look of a "Shop" Competizone CycloCross with the brazed on Mafac brake spigotts. The Competizone had more economical plain gauge Reynolds tubes. Do you think that is the case? What size seat post does it take? The serial along BB shell, comparing to other examples in data base suggests a frame built by Tommy Quick and by Dave's latest reckoning in his prediction table it is c.1972. (Earlier 69 series numbers with a larger font that are vertically stacked across BB seem to have been associated with Reg Collard builds - the main Shop guy in earlier years.)
69364 according to Dave's prediction table dates also to c.1972. Numbers across the BB as with this frame are not seen with frames attributed to Quick, the main guy during this time period, which suggests frame is built by an outside builder. If plain gauge than likely it is a Competizone Road. If DB tubing this would point to an Italia. I've noticed lug types seem to be more mix and match in shop models. Besides tubing type, detail pics around fork crown and seat cluster might also help with ID.
Interesting to see with time if this theory of attributing style of serial stamping to a particular Shop builder pans out.
Doug
Kilgariff's "1974 shop catalogue":
69387, I agree certainly has the look of a "Shop" Competizone CycloCross with the brazed on Mafac brake spigotts. The Competizone had more economical plain gauge Reynolds tubes. Do you think that is the case? What size seat post does it take? The serial along BB shell, comparing to other examples in data base suggests a frame built by Tommy Quick and by Dave's latest reckoning in his prediction table it is c.1972. (Earlier 69 series numbers with a larger font that are vertically stacked across BB seem to have been associated with Reg Collard builds - the main Shop guy in earlier years.)
69364 according to Dave's prediction table dates also to c.1972. Numbers across the BB as with this frame are not seen with frames attributed to Quick, the main guy during this time period, which suggests frame is built by an outside builder. If plain gauge than likely it is a Competizone Road. If DB tubing this would point to an Italia. I've noticed lug types seem to be more mix and match in shop models. Besides tubing type, detail pics around fork crown and seat cluster might also help with ID.
Interesting to see with time if this theory of attributing style of serial stamping to a particular Shop builder pans out.
Doug
Kilgariff's "1974 shop catalogue":
Attachments
BretonDave
Old School Hero
Eric_Luttrell
Dirt Disciple
CBguy":269g4ex8 said:
Hi Doug,
As far as the tubing goes for either frame, I am completely in the dark and not expert enough to be able to spot the difference. Both frames were purchased on eBay. I'll attach photos I tool of the lug work and fork crowns. It takes a 27.2 seat post. Note the odd head badge. I really didn't know what to make of that when I got the bike. I have one of the older Holdsworth headbadges, but this one is altogether different from any I've seen. It's one of the things that had me really scratching my head over this frame. I have loads of fun on this bike though all year around.
- Eric
Attachments
Eric_Luttrell
Dirt Disciple
Pictures of the other "shop" frame 69364. The head badge did not come with the frame, I'd purchased it separately. Attaching a photo of how it looked when I received it. It hung in my garage for about four years before I got a bee in my bonnet to do something with it. The water bottle bosses were added when I had the frame re-painted.
- Eric
- Eric
Attachments
Eric_Luttrell
Dirt Disciple
Since I was in the garage with the camera I thought I'd snap some of my Mistral and send. I realized I had misread the number on this one as well. It looks to me now like it's 43631 and not 43831 as I posted earlier. I bought this frame in San Jose, California in 1978 to replace my beat up Nishiki Olympic. It still has the original paint, but I'm already dreaming of getting it repainted exactly the same by the same guy who painted the orange one - Rick at D&D Cycles in San Lorenzo.
Cheers
- Eric
Cheers
- Eric
Attachments
dwscrimshaw
Retro Guru
BretonDave":18n98lu0 said:
Thanks for the number, not had a Nuovo Record with a 'good' date, this will help to place the others in that year as they all have similar numbers.
Hi Doug,
As far as the tubing goes for either frame, I am completely in the dark and not expert enough to be able to spot the difference. Both frames were purchased on eBay. I'll attach photos I tool of the lug work and fork crowns. It takes a 27.2 seat post. Note the odd head badge. I really didn't know what to make of that when I got the bike. I have one of the older Holdsworth headbadges, but this one is altogether different from any I've seen. It's one of the things that had me really scratching my head over this frame. I have loads of fun on this bike though all year around.
- Eric[/quote]
Hi Eric,
Re 69387 and pics. A 27.2 seats-post suggest 531DB tubing and in my mind less likely a Competizone as apparently had plain gauge Reynolds and was not made to custom specs. Also this frame has a semi-sloping fork crown and semi wrap around seat stay caps that suggest to me not the more basic Competizone. I am not sure what to call this. It must be a custom "special; and a "cyclocross" style frame and as previous the serial number style suggests a Tommy Quick build who in early 70's when this frame was likely built was the shop "specials" guy. During the shop years that are certainly lots of special frames built that don't seem to fit a particular model. I'm not sure I recognize that style of head badge but it appears to be similar to head decal that Holdsworth used in 80's. Does your c.1986 Gemini (Marlboro) headset have a similar badge? Maybe others will have more to add re 69387.
Doug
As far as the tubing goes for either frame, I am completely in the dark and not expert enough to be able to spot the difference. Both frames were purchased on eBay. I'll attach photos I tool of the lug work and fork crowns. It takes a 27.2 seat post. Note the odd head badge. I really didn't know what to make of that when I got the bike. I have one of the older Holdsworth headbadges, but this one is altogether different from any I've seen. It's one of the things that had me really scratching my head over this frame. I have loads of fun on this bike though all year around.
- Eric[/quote]
Hi Eric,
Re 69387 and pics. A 27.2 seats-post suggest 531DB tubing and in my mind less likely a Competizone as apparently had plain gauge Reynolds and was not made to custom specs. Also this frame has a semi-sloping fork crown and semi wrap around seat stay caps that suggest to me not the more basic Competizone. I am not sure what to call this. It must be a custom "special; and a "cyclocross" style frame and as previous the serial number style suggests a Tommy Quick build who in early 70's when this frame was likely built was the shop "specials" guy. During the shop years that are certainly lots of special frames built that don't seem to fit a particular model. I'm not sure I recognize that style of head badge but it appears to be similar to head decal that Holdsworth used in 80's. Does your c.1986 Gemini (Marlboro) headset have a similar badge? Maybe others will have more to add re 69387.
Doug
Eric_Luttrell":1pf0fgud said:
Hi Eric,
RE your 69364 "shop" road frame, also wonder what size seat post it takes - as you say easiest way to decide whether might be 531DB or not? I'm no expert re tubing type either. Still wonder if might be a Competizone which was said to be plain gauge. Certainly nothing to suggest a higher end Italia/Strada with flat Wagner crown and more ordinary seat stay caps. Prugnat S lugs do suggest a "better " frame but from what I have seen "shop" seemed to less consistent re lugs used. I was mistaken with previous dating, as per Dave's prediction table both these frames date to circa 1972. I edited in prior post. Again, maybe others will have more to add.
Doug
Eric_Luttrell
Dirt Disciple
CBguy":3ud2spea said:
Sorry I forgot to add that. It's a 26.8 oddly enough. Gave me some serious headaches during the build as I could not get a good measurement with my calipers. I assumed it was 27.2 and was wrong. I had a lovely aero Campy post I was going to use, but it didn't fit. Also, my Gemini tandem has the standard 1980s head badge decal.
- Eric
