dwscrimshaw":7uqc9r4m said:I think that could be an interesting number for a CB. I assume you are looking at the early 70's 4D group of numbers when dating this frame? all I would say is this is a bit of an odd group in that it is not documented anywhere else other than here and we are using it to include frames built outside of the factory and shop systems that ran at the same time. We think it was often used for contract builds by outside frame builders and/or for other related companies like Harding, DBS etc. see the first page of the Excel file. I am not sure CB frames would have been included here hence the interest/caution.
That said I am your frame can be identified and dated. It would be useful to see some photos, particularly of the BB numbering, the lug work and the rear brake bridge. Any other distinguishing features or documentation/history would be good too.
CBguy":3h7dvhzc said:Diver,
We've often been led down the proverbial "garden path" by jumping to wrong conclusions on a frame date by using an unconfirmed serial number. I'd suggest, to be certain, you clean up the area to the left of 2825.
Having said that and as Dave had said pics are indeed helpful.
It appears to me that what you have is a Claud Butler Italia. According to nkilgariff.com he only lists in a 1981 catalogue and so perhaps only produced the one year? Thus yours is likely 1981 and looks to be in original silver grey paint. It was basically a clone of Holdsworth Elan with distinctive Prugnat 64D lugs and came as a complete bike or frame only. If after sticking my neck out here, I am bang on, than for the serial number to fit it should read 032825 (Dave's prediction places @ c.1981) and once cleaned up wouldn't be surprised that is what you find. (Holdsworth models and Claud models shared the same 6 digit system between '76 and '85).
Besides '81 catalog page with Italia it is interesting to look at Kilgariff's page on Holdsworth Elan model for comparison: http://www.nkilgariff.com/HoldsModelPages/Elan.htm
Doug
Diver":z3bemwbh said:CBguy":z3bemwbh said:Diver,
We've often been led down the proverbial "garden path" by jumping to wrong conclusions on a frame date by using an unconfirmed serial number. I'd suggest, to be certain, you clean up the area to the left of 2825.
Having said that and as Dave had said pics are indeed helpful.
It appears to me that what you have is a Claud Butler Italia. According to nkilgariff.com he only lists in a 1981 catalogue and so perhaps only produced the one year? Thus yours is likely 1981 and looks to be in original silver grey paint. It was basically a clone of Holdsworth Elan with distinctive Prugnat 64D lugs and came as a complete bike or frame only. If after sticking my neck out here, I am bang on, than for the serial number to fit it should read 032825 (Dave's prediction places @ c.1981) and once cleaned up wouldn't be surprised that is what you find. (Holdsworth models and Claud models shared the same 6 digit system between '76 and '85).
Besides '81 catalog page with Italia it is interesting to look at Kilgariff's page on Holdsworth Elan model for comparison: http://www.nkilgariff.com/HoldsModelPages/Elan.htm
Doug
Thank you very much Doug,
That seems to all add up. Upon further inspection of the serial it does appear there was a 03 where the rust now is. I'll try and get that rust cleaned up this weekend to confirm. I'm not sure if an '81 is worth anything but in any case I'd like to restore this one for myself, probably. I still haven't decided whether to (pay somebody to) completely strip and respray or to try and carefully restore. The decals are in good nick so I hope to be able to restore it.
All that being said, I'm a complete novice and I guess it depends on whether the surface rust will clean up.
Cheers,
D
Eric_Luttrell":2aj9clfc said:Thank you for the excellent reference materials. I've been able to peg all four of my Holdsworths.
43831 - a Mistral I purchased new from Shaw's Lightweight Cycles in San Jose, California in 1978. Deeply discounted because he'd had it hanging in his shop two years.
69337 - A cyclocross racing bike. I've never seen another Holdsworth CX frame, though Nick Kilgariff's catalogues suggested you could get a Competizione CX bike in the early 1970s. I can perhaps assume this was a custom order. I purchased this in the UK on eBay.
69364 - A very nondescript racing frame that was a hideous maroon color I had resprayed in Team Orange when I built it up recently as an upright urban bike with Sturmey-Archer hubs. I purchased this in the US on eBay.
60171 - A Gemini Tandem. Purchased in the US on eBay as well.
Thanks for the downloads. I am most grateful.
Eric Luttrell