has everyone lost the passion?

[OrangeRetro]

Hmmm lets all beat up specialized for producing bikes which ARE competitively priced, ARE well spec'd and ARE well built and ride exceptionally well. If you don't like the look of them stop staring at them, swing your leg over one and see how it feels.

Specialized may produce a bike for the modern market, but the amount of research that goes into them ensures that you get something for your money.

Lets not get all retro'd up, we all know that the vast majority of us spend a load of time building up NOS retro bikes which look really cool, but we are less likely to want to get them messed up regularly on the trails. Bikes wear out quickly when used regularly. What you really want is a modern ugly bike that you can spank without worrying about your pretty m900 NOS.

Sad but true. I think bikes like the Specialized Pitch offer soooo much for soooo little. Don't discount them because they are not pretty.

Myself.. the bike I ride the most was hand welded by a man, in a factory, in Halifax, and then painted slime green. It has one hydroformed tube.. which I quite like. Its fun to ride.... Therefore it gets ridden. Damn it I must be a mountain biker...

 

[hondamatic]

I am not a dedicated retro grouch. I have a modern bike. None of that which is posted above makes hydroformed tubes necessary. Or black spokes necessary. Or overly wrought, overly styled bikes with 'features' that add little to nothing to the ride quality of the bikes necessary. Or huge prices for mass produced models made overseas by exploited labor necessary. I'm not crapping on the idea of the 5" travel bike (although I steadfastly believe that all riders should learn and continue to hone their skills on a rigid bike.) I'm crapping on the idea that the standard for mountain bikes today is 5" travel, asian made, cookie cutter style, and still sky-high asking prices.

Even the Wal Mart bikes are interupted seat tube full suspension bikes with double crown forks! Who in the market for a cheap-o bike needs that crap? Marketing!

What I am saying, is that the modern bikes are more about style than they are substance. I am not saying that suspension is about style and not substance (although I am a hard-tail guy.) These marketing justification blurbs being brandied about by manufacturers and magazines touting hydroformed tubes are just a way to distract you from noticing that your $3500 bike is made in Taiwan, and that it looks alot like the Giants and Treks down the street.
:shock:

Shhhh...don't tell anyone.

I know that my bike is robotically-made in Asia and soul-less.

I didn't buy it because it was hot; I bought it because it rides well, it's decently-spec'd and it cost about the same complete (with good parts; Fox Float fork, X-7, X-9, Juicy 5 brakes) as a Santa Cruz frame! And oh no, it happens to have a hydroformed tube...

My 2008 Stumpjumper is a better bike for the $2150 paid than my '99 Stumpjumper was for $1400. Better brakes, fork, drivetrain, components, and not much heavier.

 

[Scrat]

Modern bikes have taken a lot of the adventure out of riding, they work too well. I haven't seen any photos of stick duct taped to a broken frame tube so you could get back to civilisation for a while, or ridden back to the car fully bottomed out will split elastomers/ blown seals.

I miss the feeling of riding off camber with the bars pointing 45 deg uphill waiting for the flex to wildly unload and me flying over the bars.

Has anyone else noticed that Roadies are doing the Anno CNC gucci bling thing at the moment, all 90s retro styles?

 

[Neil G]

Hmmm lets all beat up specialized for producing bikes which ARE competitively priced, ARE well spec'd and ARE well built and ride exceptionally well. If you don't like the look of them stop staring at them, swing your leg over one and see how it feels.

Specialized may produce a bike for the modern market, but the amount of research that goes into them ensures that you get something for your money.

Lets not get all retro'd up, we all know that the vast majority of us spend a load of time building up NOS retro bikes which look really cool, but we are less likely to want to get them messed up regularly on the trails. Bikes wear out quickly when used regularly. What you really want is a modern ugly bike that you can spank without worrying about your pretty m900 NOS.

Sad but true. I think bikes like the Specialized Pitch offer soooo much for soooo little. Don't discount them because they are not pretty.

Myself.. the bike I ride the most was hand welded by a man, in a factory, in Halifax, and then painted slime green. It has one hydroformed tube.. which I quite like. Its fun to ride.... Therefore it gets ridden. Damn it I must be a mountain biker...

Agree, modern bikes are for abuse

 

[legrandefromage]

Re: Progress

If we didn't have profit, we wouldn't have research and D or progress, I'm probably one of the oldest on here and IMHO most of the modern bikes and components rock and do a grand job of tackling terrain at speeds bikes 10 years ago couldn't even travel over. Maybe a bit of this "retro is best" is more of an excuse for falling off hurts these days?

Wouldnt quite put it 10 years ago, maybe 20 -

10 years ago: http://www.vintagecannondale.com/year/1999/1999V1.pdf

 

[orange71]

Modern bikes have taken a lot of the adventure out of riding, they work too well.

that's my view. Fine if you want to turn a boulder-strewn bridleway with lots of drop offs into a motorway. I don't want that. By riding older bikes I get to make my local tame-ish trails into challenging terrain. Saves me having to go further to get a buzz. I can get it on my doorstep.

There wouldn't be any challenge or danger on a 5" fully suspended modern bike. Or at least I'd have to go a lot further to find those sorts of trails.

 

[utahdog2003]

Fine if you want to turn a boulder-strewn bridleway with lots of drop offs into a motorway. I don't want that. By riding older bikes I get to make my local tame-ish trails into challenging terrain. Saves me having to go further to get a buzz. I can get it on my doorstep.

There wouldn't be any challenge or danger on a 5" fully suspended modern bike. Or at least I'd have to go a lot further to find those sorts of trails.

yup yup!!

I do not have a beef with Specialized as a brand, and arguable their product is as good or better than any other offered by a major manufacturer. I owned a M4 Stump that rode very nicely, and equiped with XT-LX and private labeled stuff, cost only 900 bucks out the door!

I guess what I'm tweaked about, isn't the style and substance argument, but rather that the style of these bikes has taken the attention away from the real meat and potatos of the bike industry....

Hondamatic...I'm not picking on you intentionally, I swear! But I am going to use the bikes in your sig to make my point.

Your 1999 Stump Comp...MSRP $1199US
Your 2008 Stump FSR Comp...MSRP $2559US

Both very reasonable...BUT...!

Adjust that 99 Stump to 2008 prices (using one of the myriad of inflation adjusters available on the web elsewhere) and you get $1479

That's an $1100 difference, between a hard tail and a rigid bike with reasonably close quality parts in their builds. 1100 seems to me to be a fair adjustment to go from hardtail to full suspension, and all other things being equal, I'd be all over the 2008 as a great bike...BUT!

All things aren't equal. The 2008 is made in Asia by machines and operators who make peanuts for a living! That 1999 of yours has a "Made in the USA" sticker on it, and that means that the guy who put the pipes together made at least $5US an hour. The guys that make your 2008 make that in a day if they're lucky.

So my point (and I do actually have one, I swear! :? ) Is first...where did the money that Specialized saved in moving manufacturing overseas go? That savings wasn't passed on to you. And Finally, I think the sexiness of overly styled expensive looking modern bikes exists to keep you distracted so you don't ask the question, "hey...why isn't this beauty cheaper if its made in Taiwan?"

I guess maybe this isn't something that all buyers look for, but I don't want stuff made in a place where people don't make a fair wage, especially if the price isn't adjusted accordingly. If one year Pace made a full suspension bike in the UK, slathered it with Union Jacks, and touted it as the best in Britain, and then 3 years later sold a spec-comparable bike, imported from China (undoubtedly still slathered with Union Jacks!), and didn't adjust the price accordingly, wouldn't my points still apply? When Specialized shipped their manufacturing overseas, I was cushed. I'll never own a modern Specialized again.

Technology and modern style aren't inherently a bad thing, but I think a good amount of 'improvements' in the industry to day are there to keep you from asking why Trek (who used to make just about EVERYTHING in Waterloo Wisconsin) doesn't make that $2500 bike in the US anymore.

Same thing with Ritchey Components. Old Tom can slap red, white, and blue packaging all over Sugino cranks and Hsin Lung stems, but I don't want them for the same cost as a product made here in the states. Even Ned, back in the day, saved "his money" buy using the cheaper 'Zoom' labeled Hsin Lung crap. (I know he was sponsored by Zoom...hense the quote.)

I'll get off my soap box now. Thanks for the forum to vent, Mods!

 

[hondamatic]

Fine if you want to turn a boulder-strewn bridleway with lots of drop offs into a motorway. I don't want that. By riding older bikes I get to make my local tame-ish trails into challenging terrain. Saves me having to go further to get a buzz. I can get it on my doorstep.

There wouldn't be any challenge or danger on a 5" fully suspended modern bike. Or at least I'd have to go a lot further to find those sorts of trails.

yup yup!!

I do not have a beef with Specialized as a brand, and arguable their product is as good or better than any other offered by a major manufacturer. I owned a M4 Stump that rode very nicely, and equiped with XT-LX and private labeled stuff, cost only 900 bucks out the door!

I guess what I'm tweaked about, isn't the style and substance argument, but rather that the style of these bikes has taken the attention away from the real meat and potatos of the bike industry....

Hondamatic...I'm not picking on you intentionally, I swear! But I am going to use the bikes in your sig to make my point.

Your 1999 Stump Comp...MSRP $1199US
Your 2008 Stump FSR Comp...MSRP $2559US

Both very reasonable...BUT...!

Adjust that 99 Stump to 2008 prices (using one of the myriad of inflation adjusters available on the web elsewhere) and you get $1479

That's an $1100 difference, between a hard tail and a rigid bike with reasonably close quality parts in their builds. 1100 seems to me to be a fair adjustment to go from hardtail to full suspension, and all other things being equal, I'd be all over the 2008 as a great bike...BUT!

All things aren't equal. The 2008 is made in Asia by machines and operators who make peanuts for a living! That 1999 of yours has a "Made in the USA" sticker on it, and that means that the guy who put the pipes together made at least $5US an hour. The guys that make your 2008 make that in a day if they're lucky.

So my point (and I do actually have one, I swear! :? ) Is first...where did the money that Specialized saved in moving manufacturing overseas go? That savings wasn't passed on to you. And Finally, I think the sexiness of overly styled expensive looking modern bikes exists to keep you distracted so you don't ask the question, "hey...why isn't this beauty cheaper if its made in Taiwan?"

I guess maybe this isn't something that all buyers look for, but I don't want stuff made in a place where people don't make a fair wage, especially if the price isn't adjusted accordingly. If one year Pace made a full suspension bike in the UK, slathered it with Union Jacks, and touted it as the best in Britain, and then 3 years later sold a spec-comparable bike, imported from China (undoubtedly still slathered with Union Jacks!), and didn't adjust the price accordingly, wouldn't my points still apply? When Specialized shipped their manufacturing overseas, I was cushed. I'll never own a modern Specialized again.

Technology and modern style aren't inherently a bad thing, but I think a good amount of 'improvements' in the industry to day are there to keep you from asking why Trek (who used to make just about EVERYTHING in Waterloo Wisconsin) doesn't make that $2500 bike in the US anymore.

Same thing with Ritchey Components. Old Tom can slap red, white, and blue packaging all over Sugino cranks and Hsin Lung stems, but I don't want them for the same cost as a product made here in the states. Even Ned, back in the day, saved "his money" buy using the cheaper 'Zoom' labeled Hsin Lung crap. (I know he was sponsored by Zoom...hense the quote.)

I'll get off my soap box now. Thanks for the forum to vent, Mods!

Well, I got good deals on both bikes!

(Keep in mind, my exchange rate was better in that time too... around $.67 CAD = $1 USD in '99, and close to par this year. So the two bikes were definitely closer in price for me.)

Even if the gap is as large, going through this part by part I think you could justify the expense:

Avid Juicy 5 Hydraulic disk brakes vs. Avid SD 20 Brakes and levers

The part counter cost on Avid Juicy 5's is at least $150/wheel. They work a hell of a lot better than V's, and they're way harder/more intricate to make.

Fox F120 RL fork vs. Manitou SX

On a feature level, they're close - both lack compression damping adjustment (the SX was internal).

On a performance level, no comparison. The Fox is a world stiffer, better-damped and smoother than an SX. The SX was a good fork at the time, but it's no comparison for a modern fork. It was Manitou's budget fork by the mid-2000s. (The Manitou Six?)

A rebranded Fox RP3 ("Specialized Triad") shock vs. no rear shock

Now, whether or not you need a rear suspension is something you could debate on and on... however, have you looked a catalogue price for a rear shock lately? OMG, it's close to $400. See here: http://www.cambriabike.com/shopexd.asp? ... SHOCK+2009.

Shimano LX external-BB crankset vs. a "Specialized" branded Sugino

Even the lower-end external-BB cranksets are much stiffer and lighter than the earlier ones, and bearing changes are super-easy. A flexy, crappy Sugino originally came on the old bike.



I could go on, but I think I made the point. There are definite improvements in components between now and then that are accountable for a lot of the cost. On a performance and on a manufacturing cost basis, you could definitely make up the $1100 difference.

 

[MikeD]

All things aren't equal. The 2008 is made in Asia by machines and operators who make peanuts for a living! That 1999 of yours has a "Made in the USA" sticker on it, and that means that the guy who put the pipes together made at least $5US an hour. The guys that make your 2008 make that in a day if they're lucky.

Nice try. Both those frames were made in Asia. Specializeds always have been. That was Mike Sinyard's business model from the start. The threshold for "Made in the USA" was not that high in 1999 (this may have changed). And very few production frames are welded in any other way than by people. They're better at it, and cheaper, even though Taiwanese welders are pretty well paid. It's all about how much you make relative to how much things cost where you live, after all.

 

[hondamatic]

Nice try. Both those frames were made in Asia. Specializeds always have been. That was Mike Sinyard's business model from the start. The threshold for "Made in the USA" was not that high in 1999 (this may have changed). And very few production frames are welded in any other way than by people. They're better at it, and cheaper, even though Taiwanese welders are pretty well paid. It's all about how much you make relative to how much things cost where you live, after all.

My '99 does have the "Made in the USA" sticker on the seat tube. I know that by '99, Hardrocks, Rockhoppers and their dual suspension bikes were made offshore.

And you're right; Taiwan's a pretty high-quality place to manufacture.