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Given the choice I'd have Colt's truck btw, or BA's van.
Given the choice I'd have Colt's truck btw, or BA's van.
electric van and when to make the change?
- Thread starter jonnyboy666
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torqueless
Senior Retro Guru
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http://blogs.ubc.ca/landscapesofenergy/ ... equity.pdf
Approaching fifty years old... as good and necessary as ever.. just like my favourite bike
http://blogs.ubc.ca/landscapesofenergy/ ... equity.pdf
Approaching fifty years old... as good and necessary as ever.. just like my favourite bike
CassidyAce
Senior Retro Guru
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There are issues of equality too. There are even if we consider petrol cars alone: over 40% of lower income bracket households in the UK do not own a car. In fact, it was only around 1970 when more than 50% of UK households owned a car. More than that, the richest tend to drive the most while the poorest tend to suffer the worst air quality. Car use is shot through with inequality.
Now, a Ford Fiesta is a more affordable option for many (though not all) people than an EV. That's true. The Fiesta is cheap to insure, run, etc. but environmental economists will say that's because Fiesta owners (and owners of other cars, obviously) are not paying the real cost of running those cars because they're not paying for the costs to third parties (present or future) affected by their car use (the theory of negative externalities - just Google it). In the sense that the monetary price is not reflective of true and complete costs, the monetary price is a fantasy figure. Or, put it this way, it's the correct price for a world we don't actually live in.
In turn, our human geography and built environment have been enabled by the unduly cheap use of the internal combustion engine - from out of town shopping centres to the separation between home and work - and now it requires cheap transport to get the shopping, go to work, etc. Changing that will probably need to be part of the solution since those circumstances create much of the demand for car use. It’s all a bit of a mess really.
I agree with a lot of what you say, and torqueless and Greencat for that matter. Cars are used as status symbols, demand is constructed or engineered in various ways, etc. (As long ago as 1960, Vance Packard was explaining this stuff in books like The Waste Makers, which is still worth a read.) The bulk of a EV's CO2 footprint comes from its manufacture and the bulk of a traditional car's CO2 footprint comes from exhaust. The CO2 footprint from manufacture is higher for an EV but the lack of CO2 emissions from exhaust means that a petrol engine car can have a higher overall CO2 footprint (manufacture + use) within two years of sale. In turn, that means that, even if an existing petrol engine car was scrapped and replaced with a brand new EV, within four years the EV's CO2 footprint, including manufacture, could be less than the CO2 footprint of an existing traditional car's exhaust alone. (https://www.carbonbrief.org/factcheck-h ... ate-change). However, it very much depends on how the electricity is generated. In Poland, the CO2 footprint of an EV, over its entire lifespan, would be higher than that of a petrol car at present due to the reliance on coal to generate electricity. But care for the global environment requires global efforts - no one is denying that apart from conspiracy theorists.legrandefromage":1hch5qia said:
There are issues of equality too. There are even if we consider petrol cars alone: over 40% of lower income bracket households in the UK do not own a car. In fact, it was only around 1970 when more than 50% of UK households owned a car. More than that, the richest tend to drive the most while the poorest tend to suffer the worst air quality. Car use is shot through with inequality.
Now, a Ford Fiesta is a more affordable option for many (though not all) people than an EV. That's true. The Fiesta is cheap to insure, run, etc. but environmental economists will say that's because Fiesta owners (and owners of other cars, obviously) are not paying the real cost of running those cars because they're not paying for the costs to third parties (present or future) affected by their car use (the theory of negative externalities - just Google it). In the sense that the monetary price is not reflective of true and complete costs, the monetary price is a fantasy figure. Or, put it this way, it's the correct price for a world we don't actually live in.
In turn, our human geography and built environment have been enabled by the unduly cheap use of the internal combustion engine - from out of town shopping centres to the separation between home and work - and now it requires cheap transport to get the shopping, go to work, etc. Changing that will probably need to be part of the solution since those circumstances create much of the demand for car use. It’s all a bit of a mess really.
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I'm all for these :mrgreen:
https://www.moneyshake.com/shaking-news ... ectric-car
https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/ ... 200fmVb6vI
https://www.moneyshake.com/shaking-news ... ectric-car
https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/ ... 200fmVb6vI
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mk one":phnisok7 said:
Aye, the comical taxes on fuel in the UK already meet that requirement IMO.
My biggest fear is pricing people out of motoring.
My wife and I are both Civil servants, being paid a long way under the equivalent in the public sector, our (highly specialised) jobs are 40 miles apart, so we live in the middle and my commute by public transport would be 4.5 hours each way. Cars are essential for me and I can honestly see me being unable to afford to commute
it would also cost me £7-8k a year via public transport. My car, all in (fuel, services, tax, insurance, everything inculding purchase cost spread over 4 years) costs less than £3.2K a year. A very basic second hand EV at todays prices AND electricity costs etc would see me at closer to £5k a year (and that would be for something that would BARELY meet my requirements WRT range)...Rock and a hard place.
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Same here mate, my closest work place is 25 miles away, where I have worked for 20 years. The average house price in the town is 340k where as our house is worth over 100k less than that.
No direct public transport and the only route would make a 40 min car journey 2 hrs by train and probably cost more.
I won’t be giving up cars anytime soon.
Same here mate, my closest work place is 25 miles away, where I have worked for 20 years. The average house price in the town is 340k where as our house is worth over 100k less than that.
No direct public transport and the only route would make a 40 min car journey 2 hrs by train and probably cost more.
I won’t be giving up cars anytime soon.
torqueless
Senior Retro Guru
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Yeah but would you be happy to relinquish the personal high-speed vehicle if you could live in a world so arranged that your economic viability no longer depended on it?
Or do you consider it to be your God-given right to zoom anywhere the transport infrastructure will allow?
And is the personal high-speed vehicle a status symbol for you, in the sense that you would resent others having access to it while you were denied it?
Yeah but would you be happy to relinquish the personal high-speed vehicle if you could live in a world so arranged that your economic viability no longer depended on it?
Or do you consider it to be your God-given right to zoom anywhere the transport infrastructure will allow?
And is the personal high-speed vehicle a status symbol for you, in the sense that you would resent others having access to it while you were denied it?
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The transport utopia will simply never happen in this country unfortunately.
As for cars? I like cars, like driving. Status symbol? Not really, no more than my bikes or other stuff.
torqueless":lqmlqz20 said:
The transport utopia will simply never happen in this country unfortunately.
As for cars? I like cars, like driving. Status symbol? Not really, no more than my bikes or other stuff.
torqueless
Senior Retro Guru
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Do you 'like cars' sufficiently that you would have no objection to living at close quarters to a six-lane highway? (assuming you don't already)
Do you 'like cars' sufficiently that you would have no objection to living at close quarters to a six-lane highway? (assuming you don't already)
