85 Saracen conquest....what have i started!.....Finished!
- Thread starter Tootyred
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Peachy!
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Ps @Tootyred it’s MAAS not Mass 
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Maas-Conce...3982405073&psc=1#immersive-view_1653770028174
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Maas-Conce...3982405073&psc=1#immersive-view_1653770028174
Today's D-Day.....ie decal day.
I hate putting decals on....i know @Peachy! The decal king will probably tell me all the tings i did wrong, but here goes.
It would also like to point out i know nothing about putting them on.....so any ramblings here you decide to listen to you do entirely at your own risk!
Firstly.....i took loads of photos of the frame before it went away for powder, these also had a rule in so i could mark the positions back on the newly painted frame.....useful.
Second, i always spend some time marking these positions with a glass pencil. I also mark out the tube centres.....see 1st photo.
Then i simply find the middle of the decals and apply them to the lines or a relative distance apart.....presto.
I was even lucky enough to be able to (with some heat) remove the original shop foil decal and reuse it after spraying new adhesive to the rear. That was quite important to me as it was a shop i new very well ( my best mate working there till it closed). This dates to a galaxy far far away when dialing codes only had 4 digits and the number just 5!
Its also a very sad reminder, for an ex independent bike shop employee, of how many of these fabulous small shops have been lost to the faceless likes of CRC and Evans.
Just where i worked alone there were at least 5 that have been lost.....a few survive, but sadly with each loss goes a raft of knowledge and skill.
I learnt tons as a kid from the guys i worked with, many who had spent their entire lives in shops and racing......and no.......at no point did i go on an insurance approved, 2 day, Shimano dedicated training (read sales) course.
Sorry rant over......
One other nice thing is that several of the NOS parts ive ear marked for this build, came from the same shop when it sadly closed in the 90s......ive never found an appropriate use for many and my recent clear turned up a fair bit of gold.....which some out you have benefited from too!
So really im now into the build after a good frame polish......
I hate putting decals on....i know @Peachy! The decal king will probably tell me all the tings i did wrong, but here goes.
It would also like to point out i know nothing about putting them on.....so any ramblings here you decide to listen to you do entirely at your own risk!
Firstly.....i took loads of photos of the frame before it went away for powder, these also had a rule in so i could mark the positions back on the newly painted frame.....useful.
Second, i always spend some time marking these positions with a glass pencil. I also mark out the tube centres.....see 1st photo.
Then i simply find the middle of the decals and apply them to the lines or a relative distance apart.....presto.
I was even lucky enough to be able to (with some heat) remove the original shop foil decal and reuse it after spraying new adhesive to the rear. That was quite important to me as it was a shop i new very well ( my best mate working there till it closed). This dates to a galaxy far far away when dialing codes only had 4 digits and the number just 5!
Its also a very sad reminder, for an ex independent bike shop employee, of how many of these fabulous small shops have been lost to the faceless likes of CRC and Evans.
Just where i worked alone there were at least 5 that have been lost.....a few survive, but sadly with each loss goes a raft of knowledge and skill.
I learnt tons as a kid from the guys i worked with, many who had spent their entire lives in shops and racing......and no.......at no point did i go on an insurance approved, 2 day, Shimano dedicated training (read sales) course.
Sorry rant over......
One other nice thing is that several of the NOS parts ive ear marked for this build, came from the same shop when it sadly closed in the 90s......ive never found an appropriate use for many and my recent clear turned up a fair bit of gold.....which some out you have benefited from too!
So really im now into the build after a good frame polish......
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Last edited:
Mickeyspinn
rBotM Winner
Looking fabulous ... nice touch saving the shop decal I like that !
I need to make a few decisions......
Mainly around the level of modernity im going to introduce! For example i have the original Hutchinson tyres, but whilst in one bit and perfect for a "garage queen"....im intending to ride it!
So, its going to have to be the IRC mythos lurking in the cupboard....not my favourite for off road blasting (thats why they are in the cupboard) but 1.95" and easy to fit to bigger hoops.
Second is the freewheel.....the original 600 series is in fine fettle now, but with a 14 -34 ratio and only 6 cogs, its quite a jump between ratios. Also its old skool 6 speed wide spacing, which came ( as many of you will remember) with its own issues of the chain riding the gaps.....especially on less than accurate friction...
The answer may be in the box of delights! I have a nos 88 suntour winner pro 13-28 6 speed freewheel, these are Ultra spaced (same gaps as 7 speed) and whilst the teeth are not profiled, the smaller spacers do avoid the skate....so slightly swings and roundabouts.
As i live in flatsville, only having a 1 to 1 ratio is unlikely to really trouble me.....its also new and csn have a new 7 speed chain to run on it.....saving the drivetrain from unalike wear issues....especially as the chainrings are excellent.
2 other small things....one is the pedals; i might swap the rather uninspiring shimano multi use flats that came on the bike in 85 for the years before Suntour XC11 bear traps. Serious ankle biters, but also what the Crane boys used up Kilimanjaro....Luckly ive got a pair of those lurking, that just need a bit of cerakote on the cages.
Final swap might be the grips....Saracen used some bloody torturous solid plastic grips....ive got a set.....and whilst rugged.......im not sure now much good they are going to do my aging bone structure! I feel possibly some subtle extra chunky racers edges coming on.....but the jury is out on that one.
Mainly around the level of modernity im going to introduce! For example i have the original Hutchinson tyres, but whilst in one bit and perfect for a "garage queen"....im intending to ride it!
So, its going to have to be the IRC mythos lurking in the cupboard....not my favourite for off road blasting (thats why they are in the cupboard) but 1.95" and easy to fit to bigger hoops.
Second is the freewheel.....the original 600 series is in fine fettle now, but with a 14 -34 ratio and only 6 cogs, its quite a jump between ratios. Also its old skool 6 speed wide spacing, which came ( as many of you will remember) with its own issues of the chain riding the gaps.....especially on less than accurate friction...
The answer may be in the box of delights! I have a nos 88 suntour winner pro 13-28 6 speed freewheel, these are Ultra spaced (same gaps as 7 speed) and whilst the teeth are not profiled, the smaller spacers do avoid the skate....so slightly swings and roundabouts.
As i live in flatsville, only having a 1 to 1 ratio is unlikely to really trouble me.....its also new and csn have a new 7 speed chain to run on it.....saving the drivetrain from unalike wear issues....especially as the chainrings are excellent.
2 other small things....one is the pedals; i might swap the rather uninspiring shimano multi use flats that came on the bike in 85 for the years before Suntour XC11 bear traps. Serious ankle biters, but also what the Crane boys used up Kilimanjaro....Luckly ive got a pair of those lurking, that just need a bit of cerakote on the cages.
Final swap might be the grips....Saracen used some bloody torturous solid plastic grips....ive got a set.....and whilst rugged.......im not sure now much good they are going to do my aging bone structure! I feel possibly some subtle extra chunky racers edges coming on.....but the jury is out on that one.
Attachments
Having decided to start the build.....ive just realised ive not seen the shifters.....thats because they are broken and in bits!
I just need to make a little bit for the internals to fix them. Unlike more modern thumbshifters they dont use ball bearings running in a ring of holes, rather a sprung loaded ridge that stays in place and has a ring of grooves run over it. Problem is its worn down and wont hold in the grooves any more.
So, i need to make a new one......as i cant see a spare is going to be available.....
Its got to be roughly 2mm x 4mm.....should be fun......just dont sneeze whilst working.
I just need to make a little bit for the internals to fix them. Unlike more modern thumbshifters they dont use ball bearings running in a ring of holes, rather a sprung loaded ridge that stays in place and has a ring of grooves run over it. Problem is its worn down and wont hold in the grooves any more.
So, i need to make a new one......as i cant see a spare is going to be available.....
Its got to be roughly 2mm x 4mm.....should be fun......just dont sneeze whilst working.
Attachments
Last edited:
There's nothing better than a 2 day wild goose chase!
"Oh great pain in the arse, thy name be bottom bracket " hamlet act 1 scene 3.
The bike arrived with a very strange bottom bracket arrangement in place. A 70mm 124.5mm axle in a 68mm shell, with 2mm spacers on either side of the cups.......net result was 2mm clearance on the non drive and 9mm on the drive. The lhs had bounced off the frame a few times too by the look of it. But, im not suprised as the whole bike was full of " agricultural" repairs!
So, i found the shimano spec sheet for the 6206 triple chainset.....121.5mm bb. Good....Ive got a stronglight sealed one.......when i put it in im confronted with 6mm rhs / 3mm lhs.....hummmm.
Are the arms bent? No....ive tried the spare chainset....
Is the frame bent.....Laser level says no....checked that before i stared the project.
More digging....is shimano wrong about the bottom bracket? So at this point i start measuring stuff....offset of crank etc and work backwards from this point.
I also, just out of curiosity try a xt m730 chsinset on the stronglight bb.....Hang on....that just about fits....this along with the measurements means the 6206 chainset requires a 4mm offset axle....oh crap....now i can see where the previous owner was trying (but failing) to go with the 70mm ofset axle!
Apparently in the distant past shimano did make ss axles with such an offset, however, they dont even appear on most databases!
Time to phone a friend.....30mins of head scratching on the phone.....127mm will clear the frame, but its still going to be way different side to side. No real answers.
Out of desperation i tried an old xt 122.5 NL (2mm offset) which i had to strip from my swallow....well it gave me a chance to regrease it!
BINGO.....to within 1mm it lines up both sides and the clearance is 7/8 mm a side which i can live with.
Think what this shows is that whilst most setups take modern symmetric bottom brackets and even xt m730 will take them with only a minor asymmetry as a result, its not the global panacea people believe.
Was shimano wrong about length, well no, but i dont think they envisaged use in such a wide frame. In 1984, most mtbs barely took a 1.95 tyres (my first wouldn't even fit that! 1.75 anybody). The saracen will take whopping 2.3! The chainstays are cut out to accommodate the crank arms as it is and the cranks look like they run pretty close in most pictures I've seen.
So now i just need to source a replacement axle for the swallow!
"Oh great pain in the arse, thy name be bottom bracket " hamlet act 1 scene 3.
The bike arrived with a very strange bottom bracket arrangement in place. A 70mm 124.5mm axle in a 68mm shell, with 2mm spacers on either side of the cups.......net result was 2mm clearance on the non drive and 9mm on the drive. The lhs had bounced off the frame a few times too by the look of it. But, im not suprised as the whole bike was full of " agricultural" repairs!
So, i found the shimano spec sheet for the 6206 triple chainset.....121.5mm bb. Good....Ive got a stronglight sealed one.......when i put it in im confronted with 6mm rhs / 3mm lhs.....hummmm.
Are the arms bent? No....ive tried the spare chainset....
Is the frame bent.....Laser level says no....checked that before i stared the project.
More digging....is shimano wrong about the bottom bracket? So at this point i start measuring stuff....offset of crank etc and work backwards from this point.
I also, just out of curiosity try a xt m730 chsinset on the stronglight bb.....Hang on....that just about fits....this along with the measurements means the 6206 chainset requires a 4mm offset axle....oh crap....now i can see where the previous owner was trying (but failing) to go with the 70mm ofset axle!
Apparently in the distant past shimano did make ss axles with such an offset, however, they dont even appear on most databases!
Time to phone a friend.....30mins of head scratching on the phone.....127mm will clear the frame, but its still going to be way different side to side. No real answers.
Out of desperation i tried an old xt 122.5 NL (2mm offset) which i had to strip from my swallow....well it gave me a chance to regrease it!
BINGO.....to within 1mm it lines up both sides and the clearance is 7/8 mm a side which i can live with.
Think what this shows is that whilst most setups take modern symmetric bottom brackets and even xt m730 will take them with only a minor asymmetry as a result, its not the global panacea people believe.
Was shimano wrong about length, well no, but i dont think they envisaged use in such a wide frame. In 1984, most mtbs barely took a 1.95 tyres (my first wouldn't even fit that! 1.75 anybody). The saracen will take whopping 2.3! The chainstays are cut out to accommodate the crank arms as it is and the cranks look like they run pretty close in most pictures I've seen.
So now i just need to source a replacement axle for the swallow!
Attachments
Last edited:
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