What is a Mountain Bike?

[The History Man]

I'm familiar with the quote, just not its use in relation to something so inconsequential.

This would be more apt in my view. Or even mor Apps.

Though wise men at their end know dark is right,
Because their words had forked no lightning they
Do not go gentle into that good night.


Night.

 

[GrahamJohnWallace]

I'm familiar with the quote, just not its use in relation to something so inconsequential.

History is history. I believe that what is recorded should as far as possible tell the story of what actually happened. Whether it turns out to be consequential or inconsequential is for others to decide. I would therefore prefer, for instance, that the seemingly inconsequential memories of tracker bike riders be recorded than forgotten.

 

[Woz]

I'm familiar with the quote, just not its use in relation to something so inconsequential.

History is history. I believe that what is recorded should as far as possible tell the story of what actually happened. Whether it turns out to be consequential or inconsequential is for others to decide. I would therefore prefer, for instance, that the seemingly inconsequential memories of tracker bike riders be recorded than forgotten.

Is it really the task of the MTB Hall of Fame or Marin Bicycle Museum to do such a thing?

Surely this would be more appropriate to be documented in the British National Cycle Museum.....errmm
because it is part of British history?

Practically, museums often loan out exhibts and collections etc. to other museums - for
the very purpose to increase awareness about other aspects and educate further than
their own sphere of interest.

 

[24pouces]

Voila!

And what about BMX ?

 

[Twisty]

Re:

There were rugged bikes much earlier but I think it is reasonable to assume that MountainBiking as a genre was born out of the Klunkers in Marin. So on that basis my definition of a Mountainbike is something with straight handlebars, larger tyre clearance, and generally made for going over rougher terrain.

I'd say the earlier drop bar rugged bikes developed into Cyclocross and influenced MTB, but MTB started to become it's own genre when people started using straight handlebars and brake levers off motorbikes to race them downhill.

Nowdays MTB is such a large genre that some of the MTB sub-genres are closer to cyclocross than to other MTB sub-genres.

Early Klunkers tended to have a few BMX components but other than than MTB and BMX evolved separately. BMX evolved from kids bikes being ridden round moto-X tracks. Tom Ritchey and Gary Fisher were a bit too old for BMX. Tom was a Cat 1 road racer who even did TdF, Gary Fisher did track racing although he was banned for a period of years because his hair was too long

 

[petitpal]

tbh I think that the 'Hoover' analogy earlier works quite well here. Everyone made vaccum cleaners but only one company was called Hoover and made Hoovers; but until Dyson came along pretty much everyone was 'doing the hoovering' when they were cleaning the floor - regardless of it is was with that particular company's device or not or using their innovations.

In our case - lots of people were making off road bikes, but only one of those was making 'Mountain Bikes' but now everyone rides a 'Mountain Bike' (until the Dyson equivalent comes along, of course!)

I agree with Graham's point though that it's a shame if this stuff gets lost to history. Maybe we need some stickies or a sub-group or something specifically to pick up on all this sort of stuff. Personally I find it very interesting.

 

[danson67]

Tom (Ritchey) was a Cat 1 road racer who even did TdF,

I don't think so....like Gary Fisher allegedly inventing the 29er (or was it the 650b/27.5er? I've lost track :? ) maybe some more myth and marketing than history.

IIRC 1st cat for sure...he raced for the US national road squad, and some of his frames may have been used in the TdeF, but he certainly didn't ride it.

All the best,

 

[GrahamJohnWallace]

I don't think so....like Gary Fisher allegedly inventing the 29er (or was it the 650b/27.5er? I've lost track :? ) maybe some more myth and marketing than history.

Who first used 650b & 700c on bikes specifically designed for off-road bikes is interesting and very pertinent to this thread.

European Origins
Firstly both are wheel sizes that originated in continental Europe. 700c was used on Cyclocross bikes whilst 650b was popular as a balloon tyre especially suited for use on the continental 'pave' cobblestone roads. 650b balloon tyres were also suited to off-road use and were used by both the French VCCP and by British Roughstuff riders.

Scandinavian Origins
Both 700c and 650b were also sizes used for knobbly snow and ice tyres in Scandinavia in the form of the Finnish made Hakkapeliitta tyres. With the 2" wide version being specifically used off-road by the Finnish Army ''Jaeger' cycle regiments.

Decades before the mountain bike developed French 650b balloon road tyres were being used in America with pioneer John Finley-Scott being particularly enthusiastic about their effectiveness off-road.

Tom Ritchey's claim to 650b is based on him being asked to build an English style 650b wheeled roughstuff bike by John Finlay-Scott around 1978.

While Gary Fisher's claim to 700c (29er) is based on his funding of the 700c WTB Nanoraptor tyre circa 1999 and subsequently developing bikes to fit that tyre.
However since the mid 1980's there had group of 700c cyclists/frame-builders in California using 700x47c Finnish Hakkapeliitta tyres and later Rock'N'Road Hakka copies. Most prominent in this group was Bruce Gordon and Wes Williams.

Later on it was Wes Williams who persuaded Fisher to pay for the moulds for the original 700c NanoRaptor tyre.

British Origins
But how did Finnish studded snow & ice tyres arrive in sunny California in the first place?
The answer is that English off-road cycling pioneer and ex-'Tracker' bike rider Geoff Apps sent hundreds of Hakka tyres to Fisher & Kelly in the early 80s.

So whilst 26" knobbly balloon tyre bikes are an all American in design, the first bikes with 650b balloon tyres are probably of French origin. With both 650b and 700c fat Knobbly tyres being of Finnish origin, though the first person to use them on custom built mountain bike style bikes was English pioneer Geoff Apps.

All in all, though the 'MountainBike' started with all American 26" tyres & wheels it has now become a thoroughly international undertaking. Whilst a fair share of MTB developments still originate from California it as much to do with the number of bike companies based there than the origins of the ideas that they use.

 

[Woz]

http://www.suomityres.com/eng/home/#story

Some interesting tit-bits about a 1/3rd down the page.

 

[GrahamJohnWallace]

Re:

The wonders and marketing and halve truths :facepalm:

There is no evidence of a Gary Fisher visit to the Hakkapeliitta factory nor any claim of that nature from Fisher, Kelly or Joe Breeze, who appear to be the only Marin people who knew that the tyres came from Geoff Apps. This is apparently because before better 26" tyres became available the Hakkas were seen as a specialist race tyre by Kelly and Fisher. Tyres that they didn't want their competitors to get hold of.

Geoff Apps was in contact with the Hakka manufacturers, first through the UK importer and eventually he became the sole UK importer of Nokia bicycle tyres. But in the thirty plus years I have known him has never mentioned anything about visiting the factory, or Finland for that matter. He has said however that he asked them if they could produce a 700c version of the 2" tyre but that was only possible if he paid the moulding costs or guaranteed a substantial order, which was problematic as no bicycle frames existed that would fit them.

In the letters between Apps, Fisher & Kelly the Americans frequently ask about the availability of the Hakka tyres and for Apps to send more. But why would they need to ask that if they were in direct contact with the manufacturers?

Nor is there any truth regarding large number of US mountain bikes being manufactured & fitted with Hakka tyres. Ritchey apparently made 12 though there where a few other Marin frame-builders who also used the tyres before Fisher lost interest and stopped importing them around 1984.

650b was taxed as an adult tyre size by the US authorities whilst 26" was a child size and so tax free and on top of that there where import duties and shipping costs, which made them expensive. They also seem to have been batched produced so once stocks ran out suppliers would have to wait until another batch was put through.