The greener side of retrobikeness..........

[2manyoranges]

Re:

...k-rod...I know what you mean. We have a green house and I try too be as consistent as I can - but it gets terribly conflicted ... do I run our old diesel car into the ground - it seems to be going on forever - or junk it and buy an electric, knowing that electric cars are going through huge upgrades, the batteries use minerals from exploited countries, and so on. Even in 'doing the right thing' it feels as though you can wind up doing the wrong thing. And the big risk is the emergence of fatalism - it's so hard and confusing to conserve, and you see so many not doing it or being contradictory - that you just shrug your shoulders and carry on. Everyone says '911 changed the world....' - not really, geopolitics have carried on very much the same as before. They now say 'COVID will change everything...' ...not really, I think.

 

[Tootyred]

Two issues run side by side here...one is permanence and the other acceptance.

Talking to kids (18 to 21 year olds) at university, it clear they have no demand for permanence. In fact, they see it as a drawback! " why would you want a ( insert object here) that lasts for ever? A new better one will come out next year".

Believe it or not this even goes as far as housing. When asked if they thought they would buy a house..." no...what happens if I decide I dont like it in a year or I get bad neighbours or my job moves" very valid points that actually make the act of paying a mortgage seem stupid in terms of every part of normal existence!

As for acceptance, this is age and experience specific. As a retired person, I struggle to accept the transient nature of items, as I grew up in a society and time when items were made to last ( I'm NOT saying they were functionally better necessarily, just better made).

As to latter generations they accept what's in front of them, just as we did.

As a manufacturer, why would you build to last, knowing your audience has been consumer fed since birth into wanting the latest item? Why build using quality materials when it will be old hat next year?

Of course the biggest culprit is technology, put a computer in everything is a sure fire way of guaranteeing obsolescence.

Is the world more environmentally friendly? In many ways yes, but possibly not in a way that older generations accept. Items lasting longer is not the only measure.....what about the terrible non recyclable plastics we used or brick houses or petrol or mixed landfill or cfc or asbestos! All of which we blighted the world with.

Just something to think about next time we complain about that degradable, recycled, recyclable plastic widget your grandson has just bought!

 

[legrandefromage]

But you are forgetting that 30, yes, 30 years ago, the environment was very much on the agenda and supermarkets offered biodegradable bags and packaging. Somewhere down the line this was lost. There was even potato based packaging materials available. Hydrogen cars were about and we were all supposed to be super green by now. Around 1987 we knew the Ozone layer was fucked so we looked to ban CFC's, unleaded petrol was starting to appear with all new cars to have catalytic converters fitted by 1991.

But all that has been fucked into oblivion by the obsession with growth. If the economy isnt growing, its bad. Plus theres about 1.5 billion too many on the planet. We're at the beginning of the next epoch, something had to give and the current silliness may just be the start of it all.

 

[Tootyred]

Re:

Mr fromage, you are completely right.

30 years ago environmentalism was trendy. Almost a middle class hobby. Now its supposed to be the norm.

Sadly people dont care about normal things or make an effort, their participation is also dictated by their wallet. The environment costs money and nobodys wanting to spend.

Such dreams and ideas....I remember discussing Reed bed technology for housing estates, rainwater harvesting on mass, green transport routes bla bla bla at university 40 years ago. They are all available, but at a cost that makes most people turn away from them.

Either environmental measures need to be enforced in law or subsidised in a meaningful way.

As for our retro bikes, whilst a 30 year old palisades is still quite usable and serviceable, I doubt a £250.00 bike from today will make it and sadly that has little to do with quality and more to do with fashion and a chuck away society. " it's dusty and got 2 flat tyres....lets get a new bike" it's why tips are full of them.

 

[Corblimeyguv]

Re:

I sometimes forget just how old some of the items I own really are, especially electricals.
The tv I was using was working fine but I changed it for a 'smart' one.
Was that a good idea ? Will it last as long ?

As for bikes tootyred is correct, would a £250er today last as long as what we bought years ago?
Probably not is my guess.

 

[k-rod]

Re:

As well, the current practice of making products that have a finite life span more or less began with and ran concurrent to the whole wave off off-shoring production an fabrication from western/European lands (where wages were higher/more fair) to places where people worked for slave wages, and where there were no environmental regulations or consciousness whatsoever.

And the genius of it all was, that the admirals steering these lands also understood that in making these products cheaper and cheaper (using plastics ... then lower and lower quality of plastics) made the products both more affordable, as well as more temporary (built-in obsolescence).

No longer are there artisans and specialized craftspeople (can't say 'craftsmen' any more, eh) building high quality items here in the west (out of metal and wood and leather etc); but rather everything is now crap/shite made out of cheap plastics that structurally and chemically breaks down in a couple of years (because of UV rays and because of the chemical composition within the fabrics) ...

So, the manufacturers based in the east made junk products that we could buy cheaply at Cosco and Walmart (but which products would fail within two years, for trillions and trillions of dollars ... and then they took those trillions of dollars and started buying all the things that the west world had that lasted and had any real value (ie: land and resources) ...

And so now, here we are - all because of the love of money - economics - we are now living in a world that is poised on the brink ... on the brink of a completely devastating and catastrophic disaster!

 

[mattr]

Re: Re:

Thanks for the steel thought....yep....tried that. Of course for tubeless ready tyres. most have a thin coating of buytl rubber on the inside, which is easy to damage and remove if you use anything too aggressive. If that's damaged, then the tyres become weird latex-leaking things all over....

Well, err. No, they don't. That's the whole premise of tubeless conversions. I have several tyres that are completely not tubeless, in any way shape or form, they have no butyl layer, at all, christ, some i've converted probably almost predate tubeless as a concept. They just get a thorough scrub up, blown onto the rim (95% success rate) and 100ml of (decent) sealant. And then i can run them until they are utterly unusable, losing knobs and/or almost bald. Once the initial set up is finished, it's sealant on the inside, tread on the outside.

Same with tubeless ready tyres, quite a lot of the lighter tubeless ready tyres have no internal coating either, it's just the bead that is tweaked.

Or, those manky tyres with dried sealant, you could just give them a quick clean and use them as tubeless anyway.
You can buy conversion strips for virtually any rim on the market at the moment. Or you could just ghetto it with an old knackered tube.

 

[k-rod]

Re:

I mean, even the home construction methods here in (largely) North America, where 2 x 4's and wood structures are the norm; is one where unless a structure was built as a very detailed and high-end 'work of art' (some of the Arts-and-Crafts structures now considered heritage buildings here on the west coast) ... their life-span seems to be about 35 to 50 years max.

After this time, the structure is smashed down, the property leveled off, and either a new/bigger/better house is built on the same spot; or ... two or three of the nice stately sized properties are assembled, re-zoned; and then twelve residences are built on the same piece of land where once stood three homes (an off-shoot of European-style row housing).

In the end, it's all about money: fiat currency (no real value) printed out of a privately owned banking system ... which system NEEDS a perpetually expanding financial balance sheet in order to maintain it's corrupt and underlying value-less nature (and keep that nature hidden from the average consumer/citizen).

Anyway ... venting done. The earth, unless there are radical changes in the over-all consciousness and value systems of all humans, is fooked ...

:facepalm:

 

[k-rod]

Perhaps that's another reason that retro-bikes have such an appeal (in addition to the fact that they were part and parcel with a creative and quickly self-inventing sport/industry, as well as part and parcel with each of our own biking experiences during our athletically prime and still somewhat formative years) ...

that not only do we identify with them in a way that is a part of who each of us is ... but that they are/were built out of materials that lasted longer and were a bit more permanent, than are today's counterparts ?

 

[mattr]

Re: Re:

their life-span seems to be about 35 to 50 years max.

After this time, the structure is smashed down, the property leveled off, and either a new/bigger/better house is built on the same spot; or ... two or three of the nice stately sized properties are assembled, re-zoned; and then twelve residences are built on the same piece of land where once stood three homes (an off-shoot of European-style row housing).

And i bet there is probably another 50+ years life left in the older house as well.
The oldest house on my street has loose stacked boulders for a foundation and cellar walls, was built out of almost completely green wood (cut and planed on site) and is still in remarkably good condition, and from a distance, pretty much looks like an almost new house except for the fact that none of the windows are the same size or style!

It's about 140 years old. Doesn't even cost a huge amount to heat or maintain, not significantly more than mine, which is 40 years old.