Some thing about the titanium frames

[Elev12k]

My practical example is that I have never seen anything out of the far east to come anywhere near rivalling the levels of artistry in a Yo Eddy paint job – BUT the truth is that a lot of them rust and very sadly have had to be repainted. The artistry was great, but they shouldn’t have rusted. My 97 Kilauea (built at the Giant factory in Taiwan?) is not very artistic but the frame is dead straight and has no trace of rust anywhere on it after 11 years. But similarly classic Ferraris were nowhere near as well built as Toyotas, etc etc.

They are not so well know to us mainly MTB enthousiasts, but they do exist though. I do love my Yo, let there be no doubt on that, but imho something like a Nagasawa is completely at Yo level if not far beyond.

 

[wickedwheels]

I had to chuckle a little bit at the posting left by the original poster. I have been in this business for 14 years, visited (repeatedly) Merlin Metalworks (when they were in Cambridge), Seven Cycles, Serotta and Independent Fabrications. They charge a very fair price, even with the recent price increases.

The "assembly" process that a steel frame goes through is nothing compared to quality titanium frames.

First, let me say that the tubing these companies use comes from Haynes (which is certainly not cheap) or Reynolds. Those suppliers are capable of making tubes with consistent wall thickness, which is no small feat. Seven and the old Merlin used custom-butted tubes, which are butted externally. Serotta uses tubes that are tapered and swaged, which is also very expensive.

Seven, Merlin and Independent Fabrications use double-pass welds, rather than single-pass. This causes a HUGE increase in labor costs, but creates a much stronger, more even weld. This is the reason their welds also look so pretty and so even.

Seven and Merlin (I'm not sure about IF or Serotta) thread the BB shell after the frame is complete, rather than buying pre-threaded BB shells. This is also very expensive, but results in a straighter frame.

These are things no other company does, American or not. This is also the reason that these frames cost so much. I've been doing this a very long time and I've NEVER seen a broken Seven or a broken Merlin. I've seen a number of broken Litespeeds (usually at the welds) and "outsourced" frames.

Titanium is a very difficult material to handle because it is so easy to contaminate the tubes. The 4 guys I mentioned have to use cotton gloves to handle the tubes to make sure that the oil from their hands does not contaminate the weld, which usually causes failure.

I guess the bottom line is this...
If you want a titanium frame that has the properties of titanium (resilient, rust-proof) you can go with any manufacturer from anywhere.
If you want a frame that's pretty well made and has all the properties of a titanium frame then go with Sandvik/TST.
If you want a titanium frame that virtually indestructible and straight you have to go with one of these manufacturers.

By the way...
Raise your hand if you've ever seen a broken titanium Merlin (pre-litespeed), Seven, Independent of Serotta.

It’s funny, the 98% of all titanium comes from Russia and China. Airborne, Dean and many others use china or URSS TI. We pay for the job and for the design and research, that’s why in china are cheaper, because they made copies and the hand is cheaper, things that every body knows.

The ti is always the same, all companies use the grade 9 tubes, 94,5% ti, 3% Al and 2,5 vanadium, the famous 3al-2,5v There are others ti like the exclusive 6al4v

A ti tube set to built a frame cost 340$ an aluminium Columbus XLR8R cost 318,71$ and the most incredible, THE COLUMBUS XCR SS, a stainless steel tube set cost 675$
A finished frame of ti cost two or tree times more than a steel frame, and you see how much money the tubes cost, independent from where the ti comes and how much money the companies invert in design etc.

If you don´t believe me or If you want to know more, Look at http://www.novacycles.com/catalog/pr...oducts_id=1249

That’s is why I don’t understand some comments about a page like http://www.amarobikes.com/ where you can find cheap ti components with they own design and they made what you want.

Yes I like Kent Eriksen and moots and Merlin or litespeed, but we pay 2000-3000 euros not only for the ti, we paid for design and the welders and of course for a good job, but the good steel is very expensive and you need a very good welder and only cost “1000 - 1500 “euros, for a frame of for example, the famous Reynolds 953.


Finally , my perfect titanium bike (I have the perfect Aluminium bike ) is a niota ti or sewanee with ti components, an american frame with some "cheap" components, escept the seat post that must be the beautiful kent eriksen.

 

[utahdog2003]

There is some confusion here between two completely different issues - hand-made vs production line and the completely different question of US-built vs Chinese-built.

I hold to my belief that some of what I read (not here, just generally) about the allegedly automatic superiority of US-built over far east-built has an element of implied racism within it. My practical example is that I have never seen anything out of the far east to come anywhere near rivalling the levels of artistry in a Yo Eddy paint job – BUT the truth is that a lot of them rust and very sadly have had to be repainted. The artistry was great, but they shouldn’t have rusted. My 97 Kilauea (built at the Giant factory in Taiwan?) is not very artistic but the frame is dead straight and has no trace of rust anywhere on it after 11 years. But similarly classic Ferraris were nowhere near as well built as Toyotas, etc etc.

I think Rody explains brilliantly the position of the hand-builder, who presumably has to pay hugely more for his materials because he orders in relatively low volumes from tube dealers that also deal in relatively low volumes. And yet he has to deliver the highest possible quality to his buyer, because that’s what people know him for. If I was his business adviser I would say $2,200 is too cheap for what he offers, and many inferior builders charge more.

But that doesn’t mean to say that the number of people both willing and able to pay more than $2,200 for a cycle frame is enough to keep a large number of US builders going. A market won’t pay more because the builder’s costs are high. A market will only pay what it wants to pay, and that’s why a lot of production of all sorts of things, not just bikes, goes to the far east.

In my first post I compare Chinese and Russian frames to my close-out TST, surely a frame that would be considered mass produced. I'll stack the workmanship of my mass produced TST up against anything from China or Russia.

Secondly, Taiwan, where your Kona comes from, is a different animal than China, same country (depending on who you ask!) but not the same from a production perspective. I wouldn't shy away from a Taiwan frame, or a Japanese frame, but they still aren't on the same level with an IF or Eriksen...or even my 14 year old EWR.

 

[Elev12k]

I do not know of a Japanese offering in the high end ti category, but without a doubt they are capable in making such ...and do it better (if still room left )

 

[purplewicked]

i will buy high end steel before cheap titanium. it will look better and ride better. size specific tubing and refined geometry by designers who know what they are doing.
titanium is not a magic word.

 

[purplewicked]

I had to chuckle a little bit at the posting left by the original poster. I have been in this business for 14 years, visited (repeatedly) Merlin Metalworks (when they were in Cambridge), Seven Cycles, Serotta and Independent Fabrications. They charge a very fair price, even with the recent price increases.

The "assembly" process that a steel frame goes through is nothing compared to quality titanium frames.

First, let me say that the tubing these companies use comes from Haynes (which is certainly not cheap) or Reynolds. Those suppliers are capable of making tubes with consistent wall thickness, which is no small feat. Seven and the old Merlin used custom-butted tubes, which are butted externally. Serotta uses tubes that are tapered and swaged, which is also very expensive.

Seven, Merlin and Independent Fabrications use double-pass welds, rather than single-pass. This causes a HUGE increase in labor costs, but creates a much stronger, more even weld. This is the reason their welds also look so pretty and so even.

Seven and Merlin (I'm not sure about IF or Serotta) thread the BB shell after the frame is complete, rather than buying pre-threaded BB shells. This is also very expensive, but results in a straighter frame.

These are things no other company does, American or not. This is also the reason that these frames cost so much. I've been doing this a very long time and I've NEVER seen a broken Seven or a broken Merlin. I've seen a number of broken Litespeeds (usually at the welds) and "outsourced" frames.

Titanium is a very difficult material to handle because it is so easy to contaminate the tubes. The 4 guys I mentioned have to use cotton gloves to handle the tubes to make sure that the oil from their hands does not contaminate the weld, which usually causes failure.

I guess the bottom line is this...
If you want a titanium frame that has the properties of titanium (resilient, rust-proof) you can go with any manufacturer from anywhere.
If you want a frame that's pretty well made and has all the properties of a titanium frame then go with Sandvik/TST.
If you want a titanium frame that virtually indestructible and straight you have to go with one of these manufacturers.

By the way...
Raise your hand if you've ever seen a broken titanium Merlin (pre-litespeed), Seven, Independent of Serotta.

It’s funny, the 98% of all titanium comes from Russia and China. Airborne, Dean and many others use china or URSS TI. We pay for the job and for the design and research, that’s why in china are cheaper, because they made copies and the hand is cheaper, things that every body knows.

The ti is always the same, all companies use the grade 9 tubes, 94,5% ti, 3% Al and 2,5 vanadium, the famous 3al-2,5v There are others ti like the exclusive 6al4v

A ti tube set to built a frame cost 340$ an aluminium Columbus XLR8R cost 318,71$ and the most incredible, THE COLUMBUS XCR SS, a stainless steel tube set cost 675$
A finished frame of ti cost two or tree times more than a steel frame, and you see how much money the tubes cost, independent from where the ti comes and how much money the companies invert in design etc.

If you don´t believe me or If you want to know more, Look at http://www.novacycles.com/catalog/pr...oducts_id=1249

That’s is why I don’t understand some comments about a page like http://www.amarobikes.com/ where you can find cheap ti components with they own design and they made what you want.

Yes I like Kent Eriksen and moots and Merlin or litespeed, but we pay 2000-3000 euros not only for the ti, we paid for design and the welders and of course for a good job, but the good steel is very expensive and you need a very good welder and only cost “1000 - 1500 “euros, for a frame of for example, the famous Reynolds 953.


Finally , my perfect titanium bike (I have the perfect Aluminium bike ) is a niota ti or sewanee with ti components, an american frame with some "cheap" components, escept the seat post that must be the beautiful kent eriksen.

i had a litespeed which i bought cause it seemed a "better deal" than high end steel from ibis or fat chance or bontrager.
bad mistake.
why? Handling. it simply wasn't there.

 

[Anthony]

In my first post I compare Chinese and Russian frames to my close-out TST, surely a frame that would be considered mass produced. I'll stack the workmanship of my mass produced TST up against anything from China or Russia.

I agree that TiSport=TST probably did excellent work, but the most telling thing is what you said yourself – you bought your frame on a close-out. And the standard price was only $1,150 in the first place (which incidentally makes an interesting comparison with Rody’s materials etc cost of $1,683 – their materials cost must have been well under half of Rody’s).

So I’m sorry, but the facts are the facts. TiSport=TST are/were surely excellent, but it appears that no US big-name brand currently wishes to deal with them in marketing their frames under its own name, while the US public don’t wish to buy US-built TiS frames under their own brand name, even at such a low price as $1,150. As you guys would say ‘go figure’.

 

[rody]

Quite a few good comments...

PurpleWicked was right...Ti is not a magic word.

Anthony, Ti Sports make some beautifully well crafted frames, certainly some of the cleanest and best builds out there...should get more credit than they do. Just because it is a house brand and not labeled otherwise should not detract from it's quality, but that is consumerism.

Additionally, they can sell their frames so much cheaper than I as they are a producer of Ti tubing, so their costs are MUCH cheaper. They sell to builders as well, with sufficient mark up

cheers,

rody

 

[madjh]

First of all, thank you for your answers.

I’m agree that the USA or european TI is better in ALL aspects, the material, the building process, the finished....), and that´s why I bought to Kent Eriksen, and next I will look for a Jewellyn stem .

I’m not comparing the quality of USA frames with the Chinese.

I’ve made a mistake: I’ve compare the cheapest Titanium tubes with the best steel, and yes, I prefer a good stainless steel than a bad ti frame.

Of course you cannot compare a Groovy frame or a fat chance or a Merlin frame with those Chinese frames, but some of them are a good choice if you can see the difference between good, regular and bad frames.

I’ll not buy a Chinese ti frame for my first bike because I prefer to spend money in a top quality aluminium or steel. But it could be a good choice for a second bike were you will not spent as much money as in your first bicycle (I’m looking for a second bicycle in steel or Ti, retro or not)

It doesn’t matter if their cost are cheaper if you ad to your frames some good details, like beautiful drop outs or some laser jobs or some thing that make the frames different and goes a level up. To see china frames is always the same.

A stem is a stem, but a jewellyn stem is jewel.

 

[cchris2lou]

Damm it , I have just bought a Litespeed . :roll: