Some thing about the titanium frames

[madjh]

It’s funny, the 98% of all titanium comes from Russia and China. Airborne, Dean and many others use china or URSS TI. We pay for the job and for the design and research, that’s why in china are cheaper, because they made copies and the hand is cheaper, things that every body knows.

The ti is always the same, all companies use the grade 9 tubes, 94,5% ti, 3% Al and 2,5 vanadium, the famous 3al-2,5v There are others ti like the exclusive 6al4v

A ti tube set to built a frame cost 340$ an aluminium Columbus XLR8R cost 318,71$ and the most incredible, THE COLUMBUS XCR SS, a stainless steel tube set cost 675$
A finished frame of ti cost two or tree times more than a steel frame, and you see how much money the tubes cost, independent from where the ti comes and how much money the companies invert in design etc.

If you don´t believe me or If you want to know more, Look at http://www.novacycles.com/catalog/pr...oducts_id=1249

That’s is why I don’t understand some comments about a page like http://www.amarobikes.com/ where you can find cheap ti components with they own design and they made what you want.

Yes I like Kent Eriksen and moots and Merlin or litespeed, but we pay 2000-3000 euros not only for the ti, we paid for design and the welders and of course for a good job, but the good steel is very expensive and you need a very good welder and only cost “1000 - 1500 “euros, for a frame of for example, the famous Reynolds 953.


Finally , my perfect titanium bike (I have the perfect Aluminium bike ) is a niota ti or sewanee with ti components, an american frame with some "cheap" components, escept the seat post that must be the beautiful kent eriksen.

 

[kaiser]

I would have thought most of the expense would have come from paying a western welder/craftsman qualified to work with Ti. As a sometime welder, welding carbon steel, stainless and even aluminium is quite easy compared to Ti(allegedly as I haven't used it).

That amaro supermotard is something else BTW , very cool.

 

[scant]

labour costs in russia & the far east are MILES cheaper than the US.
most US frames use certified ti tubing.
I'm not defending either, but the finishing between an on-one ti & a eriksen (for example) is still worlds apart & thats what people are prepared to pay for in some cases. others are happy with a cheaper/ lesser finish & to be honest you're paying a BIG price increase for better finishing that you probabily wouldnt notice in the actual ride
give it another 5-10years & china will be up there with the best... but not just yet.

 

[madjh]

Yes the supermotard is cool. Here a supermotard ss and a MTB.

Really I prefer to buy a Merlin XLM or a Moots and then put some cheap hardware (amaro or ather) The frame is the sould of the bike, but the amarao cardinale could be as a good choice as an Airborne for example. The welds are similar.

 

[madjh]

Another curiosity. Here in my country there was a fever some months ago to buy a scandium rigid frame that cost 98 euros in your home and weights 1235 gr. I bought one.

First of all it is a non paint frame, and yes it was made in china. But it is really cool and few people have problems, the same that you can have with a Specialized M5 that cost near 1000 euros or a scale. The weld and the material are good, I run many Km with that frame and sometime in bad conditions and it is a good frame. Some amateur XC run with that frame without a problem. Chinese but the European import shop have study the quality of the frame. Yes, it is a elitist shop, if they bring us bad material they reputation will fall down.

If you visit these shop you will see the copy of CK head set, and other copies like the Speedo pedals for a low price, and in the opposite you can find tune, extralite, carbon ti Ax lightness, German-excite and many other expensive stuff.

Cool stuff for retro frames.... you chose: a original CK or a copy... it deepen of your pocket, full or empty.

http://www.xclusivebikes.com/cmei/default.asp

I´m agree with you with the good job and people live better than Chinese people, they make copies etc....


PD: If you want to buy the scandium frame, you should send and e-mail to this shop and asks for one because they have an small stock and have problems to supply correct size and the V brake or disc frames.

 

[Tallpaul]

Open question, is all Ti the same (or at least similar enough for the MTB application)?

Is the titanium used in Far East frames less well refined? What are the properties of the finished product used?

I assume labour is the single largest cost differance, but are what are the cost implications of 'certified' tubing v's that prepared to a lesser cost?

I don't even know that it matters, but what are the differances to the quality of the end product? I've seen some very derogatory comments made about Chinese Ti components, but never really understood the significance of the differance. :?

 

[scant]

Open question, is all Ti the same (or at least similar enough for the MTB application)?

Is the titanium used in Far East frames less well refined? What are the properties of the finished product used?

I assume labour is the single largest cost differance, but are what are the cost implications of 'certified' tubing v's that prepared to a lesser cost?

I don't even know that it matters, but what are the differances to the quality of the end product? I've seen some very derogatory comments made about Chinese Ti components, but never really understood the significance of the differance. :?

I think the certified thing was more relevant in the past to the aerospace industry. friends of mine who work for British Airways have told me any defects can be traced back via the batch. I'm not sure how applicable this is to bikes anymore. There was a good article on this in 91 MBA titanium buyers guide, I'll try & find it

 

[Anthony]

It’s an interesting question. Russia first pioneered the use of titanium for aerospace/military purposes and still has the biggest mills and, as has been said, it has plentiful cheap labour, which may explain its market domination. Cycle products are just a tiny element in the overall market for titanium - e.g., there’s 58 tons of titanium in a single Boeing 777 – that’s enough for 39,000 bike frames! So basically tubes of the quality needed for bikes are churned out in huge volumes and are available on the world market from any number of suppliers. Some people say Sandvic is ‘the best’, but again Sandvic is a huge conglomerate that makes titanium tubes along with many other things and I personally doubt whether its tubes are noticeably better than anybody else’s – certainly you don’t find many framebuilders using Sandvic.

Ti needs to be welded in an inert atmosphere of argon or helium, because contamination with atmospheric gases causes embrittlement, reducing the strength of the welds and leading to joint failure. So basically ti frames need to be built in special facilities providing these conditions, which most framebuilders can’t afford to do. It’s more economic to invest in high tech new facilities in China than in the west (which is why economic growth is much faster there), and IMO it’s racist nonsense to say that Americans weld better than Chinese – OK, a hand-builder working to a $3,000 price can spend more time over his welds than a production line welder, but I don’t believe there’s any racial difference in skill levels or standards. If you buy a Chinese frame from a reputable source, I’d guess it was built in a modern facility and you’re going to get a pretty good frame.

It's a pity really that there is this cedibility issue - Setavento was a really good company - custom ti frame for £720, so it's a shame they've had to close down. I think Van Nicholas (formerly Airborne) are still going strong though and the Cotic Soda is pretty tasty.

 

[scant]

certainly you don’t find many framebuilders using Sandvic.

I’d guess it was built in a modern facility and you’re going to get a pretty good frame..

sandvik/ TST was/is a massive frame builder in its own right.

Nice guess I wish I could find the OZ mag which had a feature of the "Kore" operation. one staff person holding a stem in 1 hand & a drill in the other hand counter-sinking the stem bolt holes

I'm not dissing far east (shimano dominance anyone!) but like everywhere else the quality varies massively, so I'm not quite ready to jump onto the wholesale far east ti love-train just yet... just my 2p

hell, no matter where its made in the end its all marketing

 

[Tallpaul]

So is it true that general statements cannot be made about Ti products from various sources? eg US is good, Chinese is not so good...

I certainly hope what i have read in the past is not based in racism, i hope (believe?) the authors were better people than that :?

I agree that anyone is capable of producing something to the highest standard given the best materials, training etc. But i'm really looking at generalisations ( :shock: ). I'd just like to understand the facts behind why BITD a Ti frame being from Russia, or more recently from China, is considered to be an inferior product.

I think a lot has to do with marketing and the prestige attached to certain brands... In which case is it just naivety? I certainly think the R word is far too emotive to be applied in such situations, but perhaps i am the one who is naive