Silly Police - Fine for blowing nose (Case now dropped)

[Gadro]

drcarlos

Bit of a nasty incident there, can't comment on what the 'Plod' did as I don't know the full details. But it seems strange that 'nothing' happened. Caution, CPS no further action, Victim didn't want to make a complaint, i.e. go to court

But such a word 'contempt' is a little bit harsh


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JqZDIWG6 ... xt_from=PL

Looking at such 'contemptuous' comments left for this youtube video I think that the word 'contempt' is probably very appropriate in the times in which we live. Particularly in the society that has been created in the UK.

Please Read

The Policeman stood and faced his God,
which must always come to pass.
He hoped his shoes were shining
just as brightly as his brass.
"STEP FORWARD NOW, POLICEMAN.
HOW SHALL I DEAL WITH YOU?
HAVE YOU ALWAYS TURNED THE OTHER CHEEK?
TO MY CHURCH, HAVE YOU BEEN TRUE?"
The Policeman squared his shoulders
and said "No, Lord, I guess I ain't.
Cause those of us who carry a badge can't always be a Saint.


I've had to work most Sundays
and at times my talk was rough.
And sometimes I've been violent,
Because the streets are awful tough.
But I never took a penny that wasn't mine to keep...
Though I've worked a lot of overtime
when the bills got too steep.


And I never passed a cry for help.
Though at times, I shook with fear,
And sometimes, God forgive me,
I've wept unmanly tears.
I know I don't deserve a place
among the people here.
They never wanted me around,
except to calm their fear.


If you've a place for me here, Lord,
It needn't be so grand.
I never expected or had too much,
but if you don't, I'll understand.
There was silence all around the Throne,
where the Saints had often trod,
As the Policeman waited quietly
for the judgement of his God.


"STEP FORWARD NOW, POLICEMAN.
YOU'VE BORNE YOUR BURDENS WELL.
COME WALK A BEAT ON HEAVEN'S STREETS.
YOU'VE DONE YOUR TIME IN HELL."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q6l8JFyQ ... xt_from=PL

Police Constable starting wage = £22,680

The use of speed camera's has had a massive impact on the Public Perception towards the Police. In most areas it is usually Camera Safety Partnerships which operate such mobile systems. Nothing to do with Police, not staffed by them. Just because a van is white and has checker markings on it most people think POLICE. Not the case. The Police receive no revenue created through fines it all goes into Mr Darlings coffers.

Shall we talk about the Crown Prosecution Service for they are the people who decide when to or when not to prosecute for all but the most minor of offences. Shall we talk about the Cautioning process which is a major part of the Criminal Justice System and can be seen as offenders getting off with a 'slap on the wrist'. The Police don't have a choice when to Caution they are bound by Statute. The phrase the Police did nothing always raises it's head, but in many cases the Police receive the flak for abiding by the law / processes that a Government has passed. A Government that is voted into power by a democratic electorate. YOU. For those that say 'whats the point of voting' the word contempt springs into my mind



con·tempt
   /kənˈtɛmpt/ Show Spelled[kuhn-tempt] Show IPA
–noun
1.
the feeling with which a person regards anything considered mean, vile, or worthless; disdain; scorn.
2.
the state of being despised; dishonor; disgrace.

Nice

 

[neilypullsawheelie]

The police are cocks and this confirms it. Never liked them and never will.

Been on the wrong side of the law have we? Grow up!

In fairness, the guy who this is all about was clearly on the wrong side of the law, until cleared.

Regardless of whether some people have fixed opinions on police, or not - one thing you have to admit - this was truly an abuse of the office. Four police involved, and not one had the common-sense - no scratch that - the simple human decency to call stop to the whole thing.

As much as people who break the law, deserve prosecution, police who bring contempt on their profession deserve sanction, too - and this was most definitely such a case.

I only have one side to this story - the aggrieved gentleman through our very sensationalist media, however I agree on those facts it is ridiculous. What I cannot agree to however is someone dishing abuse out on a forum which is meant to be for (in my opinion) mature adults. It seems that some are only too quick to have a pop at the Police and other professions they probably know nothing about. For every story such as the hankie incident I could give you another 10 of genuine courage, bravery and decency towards the public who don't always appreciate the effort! Please don't tar everyone with the same brush, it simply isn't true.
I won't say any more on the subject though as it will probably descend into more immaturity

 

[Neil]

The police are cocks and this confirms it. Never liked them and never will.

Been on the wrong side of the law have we? Grow up!

In fairness, the guy who this is all about was clearly on the wrong side of the law, until cleared.

Regardless of whether some people have fixed opinions on police, or not - one thing you have to admit - this was truly an abuse of the office. Four police involved, and not one had the common-sense - no scratch that - the simple human decency to call stop to the whole thing.

As much as people who break the law, deserve prosecution, police who bring contempt on their profession deserve sanction, too - and this was most definitely such a case.

I only have one side to this story - the aggrieved gentleman through our very sensationalist media,

That's simply not true - we have more, now - we know the case was dropped.

Which goes into context of the police dealing with it at the time.

Don't get me wrong - I'm not shooting for denigrating the police force as a whole - I didn't wade in, one way, or the other on those comments - I commented on your comments, specifically, and in relation to the incident that started this thread, and the subsequent fallout.

 

[Neil]

'Discretion' a word used by s few people on here

Doesn't exist anymore. This Labours governments obsession with stats and figures has eroded this part of British policing so that it is now almost non-existent.

I disagree.

Police have, and still behave with discretion every day.

I'd have to say, too, that such discretion tends to follow the easier, path of least resistance route, in the main, though.

So I reject the concept that there's no discretion any more - zero tolerance is not here, yet. There certainly should have been discretion used - as has been borne out by the results.

I do accept your comments that the way the police force is run, these days (and for some time) is causation for some police being more jobsworth, but all the same, they have a responsibility to the public and taxpayers in general. IMO, too many police officers that I've encountered, have seemingly forgotten or never recognised that aspect.

The Police enforce the law and put in practice what the current Government wants. I agree that this Case is nonsense and should never have been allowed to proceed. But the Government want figures, the Police Chiefs want figures so when something easy comes along an Officers is really tempted by 'booking', 'arresting', 'cautioning' such people.

"really tempted" does not mean mandatory action, though. There's still choices.

The policies of this government have isolated the Police from the public, caused much disaffection with frontline Officers and pisses me off.

And I recognise those factors.

However, it doesn't mitigate or ameliorate police officers acting as they did in this case.

As it happens, I'm in agreement and recognise and sympathise with this and other (previous) "services" that have been commercialised and run like businesses. I think there were some serious flaws in the adoption of all the things that have been (I'm not of the view that such "services" had nothing to learn from business practices, merely that their entire operation or focus should be on those principles) imposed on the various organisatons that previously were run as services.

 

[drcarlos]

con·tempt
   /kənˈtɛmpt/ Show Spelled[kuhn-tempt] Show IPA
–noun
1.
the feeling with which a person regards anything considered mean, vile, or worthless; disdain; scorn.
2.
the state of being despised; dishonor; disgrace.

Nice

Well worthless pretty much sums it up. A complaint was made and information was provided and we spent several hours giving statements to the police and time with victim support but nothing was done, no action taken. I would have expected at very least an arrest to have been made followed by a line up to identify the alleged offender, but nothing.
This was in the days that the police still operated Radar traps themselves not the safety camera people the operate them now, they were quite happy to have several of these out everyday and it just sort of grated.

Carl.

 

[Neil]

con·tempt
   /kənˈtɛmpt/ Show Spelled[kuhn-tempt] Show IPA
–noun
1.
the feeling with which a person regards anything considered mean, vile, or worthless; disdain; scorn.
2.
the state of being despised; dishonor; disgrace.

Nice

Well worthless pretty much sums it up. A complaint was made and information was provided and we spent several hours giving statements to the police and time with victim support but nothing was done, no action taken. I would have expected at very least an arrest to have been made followed by a line up to identify the alleged offender, but nothing.
This was in the days that the police still operated Radar traps themselves not the safety camera people the operate them now, they were quite happy to have several of these out everyday and it just sort of grated.

Carl.

A few years back - perhaps 5 or 6 - I drove down a rural road, that is a 30mph stretch by a school and some houses that are near. After that, the road changes to NSL (60mph, single carriageway) as it goes out to the countryside.

I drove down the road at school kicking-out time, there were cars and 4x4s parked all over the place, and all reason seemed to have gone out of the window. Something to point out as this story progresses, though - not a police officer in site.

A few hours later, I drove the same road, coming from the opposite direction - this would be mid-evening, and not summer, because it was dark. Across the road from the school, was a Police officer, with a laser speed gun on a tripod, and another officer with a car.

At this point, as I said, I was driving in the opposite direction so from the 60mph section, slowing to the 30 section by the houses and school.

Now I'm not recounting the story because I got stopped, or got a ticket - neither happened, I wasn't speeding. I just think it was quite revealling that they were outside a school at 8 or 9 o' clock at night, with a laser speed gun, but not at the time that actually mattered - when kids were leaving the school - where were they at 3 o' clock?

The cynic in me believes it's because they had more chance of catching speeders, as opposed to acting as a good deterrent at a time when it would have matter most. Either that, or they didn't want to have to get involved in the parents of middle-england, parking absolutely awfully at school kicking-out time. I'm thinking maybe they didn't want to get involved and actually have to do something about the seeming abandonment of all sense when such parents park outside of schools, and not to rile those who'd complain the loudest.

In fairness, it's hard not to be a cynic when you see the timing of such traps, and think of the mayhem at kicking-out time.

 

[Gadro]

I disagree.

Police have, and still behave with discretion every day.

I wish that was the case, the CPS and Government Policy / Legal Guidlines have now pushed Victimless Crimes into the forefront. The advances in computer systems that the Police Service use mean that a reported crime must be actioned even in cases where the Victim wants the offender just spoken to and warned off. Possible cases of Neglect of duty. I agree that discretion is still there, but has been heavily eroded and his hanging on by the skin of its teeth. Now non-existent in many cases. Trust me the majority of Police are pulling their hair out because of this. We are criminalising whole areas of society that a mere 15 years ago would have just had a bollocking

I do accept your comments that the way the police force is run, these days (and for some time) is causation for some police being more jobsworth, but all the same, they have a responsibility to the public and taxpayers in general. IMO, too many police officers that I've encountered, have seemingly forgotten or never recognised that aspect.

Yes they do have a responsibility but they haven't forgotten that we police by consent in the UK. The majority would wish nothing more than allowing law abiding citizens who commit minor infringements to be given a simple verbal warning and suitably advised. Allegations of neglect of duty have destroyed the job, CCTV, mobile phones, etc mean that Officers have to pursue a course of conduct appropriate in Law

"really tempted" does not mean mandatory action, though. There's still choices.

When Senior Officers are breathing down the neck of frontline Officers in order to meet targets imposed from Whitehall then choices are very difficult to make. Don't forget the Police are a Disciplined Service and Officers are bound to carry out lawful orders. They must account for their performance or risk Unsatisfactory Performance Procedure against them. Potentially a sack-able offence. If Government want figures and the bosses want figures you give them what they want. Key Performance Indicators (KPI's) may be different for different roles. For example a Traffic Officer may have to book 10 Seat Belt Offences per month if he/she doesn't they can face UPP. What would you do?

However, it doesn't mitigate or ameliorate police officers acting as they did in this case.

Good and Bad in every job, however if the circumstances were slightly different. If for example the person blowing his nose had gone on to cause a fatal accident through his actions whilst driving for example in lane 3 of a motorway then perhaps a different story would have reached the Press, if at all. Imagine what would have happened if a witness came forward to say that he had seen the person blowing his nose and saw Police Officers looking at him but they took no action. Make no bones about it those Officers would have been in it up to their necks. The Press will report on 1 Bad example of policing but will fail to give coverage to all the excellent work that Officers out there are doing every day, day in day out.

 

[Gadro]

A few years back - perhaps 5 or 6 - I drove down a rural road, that is a 30mph stretch by a school and some houses that are near. After that, the road changes to NSL (60mph, single carriageway) as it goes out to the countryside.

I drove down the road at school kicking-out time, there were cars and 4x4s parked all over the place, and all reason seemed to have gone out of the window. Something to point out as this story progresses, though - not a police officer in site.

A few hours later, I drove the same road, coming from the opposite direction - this would be mid-evening, and not summer, because it was dark. Across the road from the school, was a Police officer, with a laser speed gun on a tripod, and another officer with a car.

At this point, as I said, I was driving in the opposite direction so from the 60mph section, slowing to the 30 section by the houses and school.

Now I'm not recounting the story because I got stopped, or got a ticket - neither happened, I wasn't speeding. I just think it was quite revealling that they were outside a school at 8 or 9 o' clock at night, with a laser speed gun, but not at the time that actually mattered - when kids were leaving the school - where were they at 3 o' clock?

The cynic in me believes it's because they had more chance of catching speeders, as opposed to acting as a good deterrent at a time when it would have matter most. Either that, or they didn't want to have to get involved in the parents of middle-england, parking absolutely awfully at school kicking-out time. I'm thinking maybe they didn't want to get involved and actually have to do something about the seeming abandonment of all sense when such parents park outside of schools, and not to rile those who'd complain the loudest.

In fairness, it's hard not to be a cynic when you see the timing of such traps, and think of the mayhem at kicking-out time.

I am also a Cynic and a raving Pessimist, my glass is always half empty never half full.

You're probably right, easy hit. Easy way to get figures in. Easy way to keep the bosses happy and meet your monthly targets. I can't defend the appropriateness of their actions to you.

But perhaps there were no Officers available at kicking out time, perhaps they were setting up ANPR, perhaps even, there had been a number of RTC's at the location in the past. Bet you that seeing those Officers there 6 years ago still makes you think about keeping to the speed limit at all times of the day.

Carl

I can't comment on your particular incident as I don't know the full facts. But it seems strange that an offender was identified, witness made a complaint and was prepared to attend Court yet no action was undertaken. On the facts that you have stated then yep that's crap policing and I personally would have made a complaint. But the CPS may have been involved and they may have instigated a course of No Further Action along the grounds of insufficient evidence. Seems strange I know but 1 persons word against another is very difficult to prove 'beyond all reasonable doubt'

The reason for my posts is this, it is simply unfair to tarnish the Police profession as a whole with wide sweeping statements such as other members on here have made. There are Good and Bad in all jobs

 

[Neil]

"really tempted" does not mean mandatory action, though. There's still choices.

When Senior Officers are breathing down the neck of frontline Officers in order to meet targets imposed from Whitehall then choices are very difficult to make. Don't forget the Police are a Disciplined Service and Officers are bound to carry out lawful orders. They must account for their performance or risk Unsatisfactory Performance Procedure against them. Potentially a sack-able offence. If Government want figures and the bosses want figures you give them what they want.

I have no argument with that, so long as what's charged isn't facetious, or vexatious.

Key Performance Indicators (KPI's) may be different for different roles. For example a Traffic Officer may have to book 10 Seat Belt Offences per month if he/she doesn't they can face UPP. What would you do?

What I would do is irrelevant - like politics - I don't have to postulate a solution as a result of criticising the practice.

I didn't choose to become a police officer.

However, it doesn't mitigate or ameliorate police officers acting as they did in this case.

Good and Bad in every job

And that's all that's really being said - I'm not defending or getting into the extremes who criticise all police, all the time - that's somebody else's fight.

however if the circumstances were slightly different. If for example the person blowing his nose had gone on to cause a fatal accident through his actions whilst driving for example in lane 3 of a motorway then perhaps a different story would have reached the Press, if at all. Imagine what would have happened if a witness came forward to say that he had seen the person blowing his nose and saw Police Officers looking at him but they took no action. Make no bones about it those Officers would have been in it up to their necks. The Press will report on 1 Bad example of policing but will fail to give coverage to all the excellent work that Officers out there are doing every day, day in day out.

I think you can do better than that specious argument.

The man who was charged was stationary, in a queue of traffic, and had his handbrake on.

This wasn't a question of somebody that should have been reported for an offence - it was merely abuse, because it was possible to report him for an offence.

That is the problem with it - and I'm guessing, quite probably the very reasons why the case was dismissed.

 

[Easy_Rider]

Gadro, I agree with your last statement, yes there are good and bad in every job, as i have stated previously. Unfortunately when you get bad in the Police, and there are bullies on the force, it has quite dire consequences on the public, there is no way to defend yourself. You end up with a record, DNA database, or increased insurance premiums for traffic offences. You may have seenmy previous posts with the way my brother has been treated in the past by NWP. There is nothing you can do. I know there are some very good officers too, I personally know 3 people in North Wales Police (granted ones a civy) but one of those officers is quite possibly one of the nicest guys I know, the other I don't know so well. You may not agree, but IMO there are many who join for the power rather than serving the community. I don't wish to take anything away from the good officers and the sterling work they do, I appreciate these guys very much