Salmond v Darling debate: STV
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highlandsflyer
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Just watched it. Pretty much a dent in the YES campaign. We all expected Salmond to wallop him.
Agreed. I thought it would be like a lamb to slaughter, but didn't quite turn out that way! Thought both landed decent blows - AS fairly exposed on currency, and AD made to ballet dance around his own Westminster party allegiances. The rest was just an opportunity for them to present their campaign mantras first hand. Nothing new, and of course none of us are any the wiser following it.
Three weeks til the next instalment...
Three weeks til the next instalment...
epicyclo
Senior Retro Guru
I didn't watch it. I've learned to decide by actions, not words.
The depletion of Scotland over the last 100 years under whichever political party tells me that what we currently have isn't working.
Control of Scotland by Scots may/should be better. It is unlikely to be worse.
The depletion of Scotland over the last 100 years under whichever political party tells me that what we currently have isn't working.
Control of Scotland by Scots may/should be better. It is unlikely to be worse.
velomaniac
MacRetro Rider
A vote No is a vote Yes for Britishness. Britishness is a mandate to ride roughshod over Scottishness. Just a thought !
highlandsflyer
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Re:
You know, when I am out in the glens and looking over the majestic Loch Ness with the mountains behind, I don't feel British reigns holding my Scottish identity back. When I walk the streets of the cities I am more concerned by the ubiquitousness of Burger King and Poundland than the British element to it all.
I don't feel oppressed.
However, autonomy is a key to democracy. I feel we are a special case for localised government, and the best way to achieve that is not happening at the moment. I really don't know why the 'extra' powers promised by the shape shifters at Westminster could not have been implemented already to take the wind out of the YES campaign.
Independence would assure us of more autonomy, and the one thing the BT crowd intentionally miss with all their 'one time never go back again' rhetoric is that we can negotiate just how separate we wish to remain as time goes on. At the least it gives us that option.
So regardless of the doubts over the currency and such we are all voting YES, along with the majority of our friends who are of varying nationalities. I will be very interested to see what happens if we fail to make the leap and the Westminster spinners begin to row back on their blackmail promises.
You know, when I am out in the glens and looking over the majestic Loch Ness with the mountains behind, I don't feel British reigns holding my Scottish identity back. When I walk the streets of the cities I am more concerned by the ubiquitousness of Burger King and Poundland than the British element to it all.
I don't feel oppressed.
However, autonomy is a key to democracy. I feel we are a special case for localised government, and the best way to achieve that is not happening at the moment. I really don't know why the 'extra' powers promised by the shape shifters at Westminster could not have been implemented already to take the wind out of the YES campaign.
Independence would assure us of more autonomy, and the one thing the BT crowd intentionally miss with all their 'one time never go back again' rhetoric is that we can negotiate just how separate we wish to remain as time goes on. At the least it gives us that option.
So regardless of the doubts over the currency and such we are all voting YES, along with the majority of our friends who are of varying nationalities. I will be very interested to see what happens if we fail to make the leap and the Westminster spinners begin to row back on their blackmail promises.
Re:
A big point by AS was that he wanted Independence because Scotland never got the Government it voted for, good point, un-democratic, but a good point.
The SNP has been a minority Government!
I put this to Richard Lockhead, Cabinet Secretary at Holyrood:
"After Independence, if Shetland don't get the Government it voted for, would you grant them a referendum to break away from Scotland?"
He replied
"Don't be ridiculous"
Definitely not democratic!
A big point by AS was that he wanted Independence because Scotland never got the Government it voted for, good point, un-democratic, but a good point.
The SNP has been a minority Government!
I put this to Richard Lockhead, Cabinet Secretary at Holyrood:
"After Independence, if Shetland don't get the Government it voted for, would you grant them a referendum to break away from Scotland?"
He replied
"Don't be ridiculous"
Definitely not democratic!
epicyclo
Senior Retro Guru
Re: Re:
I can understand that. Shetland is not a country. That would be like saying Lancashire should be independent - not that I can see anything wrong with that if that is the democratic desire of its inhabitants.
The Scottish independence debate is based on undoing a Treaty of Union between 2 countries and reverting to previous status, a divorce if you like.
The crumbling and rotten residue of empire in London is still playing the same divide and rule cards they have been playing for centuries, hence the feeble attempts to suggest independence for Shetland.
When I see the citizens of Shetland massing in the streets demanding independence, I'll believe it.
taysider":3fhawmgq said:
I can understand that. Shetland is not a country. That would be like saying Lancashire should be independent - not that I can see anything wrong with that if that is the democratic desire of its inhabitants.
The Scottish independence debate is based on undoing a Treaty of Union between 2 countries and reverting to previous status, a divorce if you like.
The crumbling and rotten residue of empire in London is still playing the same divide and rule cards they have been playing for centuries, hence the feeble attempts to suggest independence for Shetland.
When I see the citizens of Shetland massing in the streets demanding independence, I'll believe it.
jonthefish
Senior Retro Guru
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Re: Re:
Indeed. To listen to BT you'd think there was no risk in the union. In fact we risk:
1. A conservative UKIP coalition (what a joy that would be)
2. Exit from Europe (hmm...but not helpful in short to medium term)
3. Punitive reform of Barnett formula and grossly reduced block grant to Scotland (BT would say appropriate but data show Scotland pays more to UK than it receives)
4. Continuing policy focus on the idiotic money-go-round in London that dropped us all in the economic shi*e in the first place and
5. Ongoing lack of any sensible industrial policy for Britain incl. for our poor English pals.
I have worried about what lack of Scottish votes might do to England but see http://www.heraldscotland.com/comment/c ... t.25189347
It is Yes for me and if my Norwegian missus who has been paying tax here for 15 years could vote it'd be Yes for her too. By the way, the Norwegians voted almost unanimously for independence many decades before they'd even discovered oil. Look at them now. Why are we Scots so feart?
highlandsflyer":23ks650j said:
Indeed. To listen to BT you'd think there was no risk in the union. In fact we risk:
1. A conservative UKIP coalition (what a joy that would be)
2. Exit from Europe (hmm...but not helpful in short to medium term)
3. Punitive reform of Barnett formula and grossly reduced block grant to Scotland (BT would say appropriate but data show Scotland pays more to UK than it receives)
4. Continuing policy focus on the idiotic money-go-round in London that dropped us all in the economic shi*e in the first place and
5. Ongoing lack of any sensible industrial policy for Britain incl. for our poor English pals.
I have worried about what lack of Scottish votes might do to England but see http://www.heraldscotland.com/comment/c ... t.25189347
It is Yes for me and if my Norwegian missus who has been paying tax here for 15 years could vote it'd be Yes for her too. By the way, the Norwegians voted almost unanimously for independence many decades before they'd even discovered oil. Look at them now. Why are we Scots so feart?
velomaniac
MacRetro Rider
Dont know about you lot but I'm starting to feel physically sick about my final decision on referendum day. Half of me is Yes, half of me No but its too important not to make a decision.
I want Devo Max, Yes is beyond Devo Max, maybe too far, No is quite probably no Devo Max and a continuation of Status Quo which is quite frankly an utterly broken system which could lead to me never voting again ever !!!!
I hope I dont have a panic attack on polling day itself, that'll be horrible, I do get them from time to time and they're a most horrid experience.
Feeling sick and very glum at the moment :cry:
I want Devo Max, Yes is beyond Devo Max, maybe too far, No is quite probably no Devo Max and a continuation of Status Quo which is quite frankly an utterly broken system which could lead to me never voting again ever !!!!
I hope I dont have a panic attack on polling day itself, that'll be horrible, I do get them from time to time and they're a most horrid experience.
Feeling sick and very glum at the moment :cry:
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