rim and spoke selection for Eroica build

[Holiocornolio]

2 for 1 question here, canvassing for opinion and experience. I have acquired a set of dura ace (7401) hubs for my eroica(esque) build and am pondering spoke and rim choice. I am pretty much decided that I am going to eschew historic accuracy for rims. I am happy to go for retro looks and modern features because I really enjoy the convenience of a tubeless set up. So I'm looking for rims that will fit in my frameset (condor Baracchi) and work tubeless. I like the look of the H PLus Son TB14 and the Pacenti Brevet, but they're relatively spendy, so any other suggestions will be well received. Spoke wise, I have always used Sapim Lasers on front wheels and a Laser - Race combo on the rear. Are butted spokes breaking any erioca rules?? For that matter is going tubeless a nono? As ever, advice and suggestions gratefully received. Oh quick additional question. the rear hub i have could do with a polish to get out a lot of surface micro scratches. Any suggestions on how to tart that up a little? Brasso?

 

[keithglos]

In the 1960s I was buying spokes in over 100 gross lots. Mainly 15/17G butted (1.8mm), a few 14/16 butted (2mm), about a third stainless.
The stainless spokes cost just over £1 a gross (144). Wheels were mostly 27 x 1 1/4 wired on, 32/40 and rims for tubulars 40, 36,32,28 and occasionally 24. Rarely used the 14/16 butted unless for someone heavy. For tandem wheels 12/14G.

Keith

 

[Holiocornolio]

Re:

Thanks! After you'd bought a gross, did you still have change for a fish supper, 9 pints of best bitter and a 3 piece suit? Those were the days eh? ;-)
Seriously, thank you that's useful info. I'm surprised to hear of 24 spoke rims in the 60s too!

 

[Old Ned]

Don't forget to include the tram ride home in that calculation...............

TBH, I'd be surprised if anyone would measure/check spokes, even at L'Eroica. Butted spokes have been around for years. Do the 'rules' negate the use of tubeless? If not then they can't argue.

 

[keithglos]

100 gross = 14,400 enough spokes for 200 pairs of wheels. Although I could lace up a 40 hole wheel in around 3 minutes, an average cheap wheel would take about 30 minutes, decent racing wheel about 1 hour and the light 8 ounce Scheeren wood insert rims about 1.5 hrs.
In the 60s Beryl Burton was on Scheeren 8 ounce rims 24 spoke, imported by Ron Kitching. When ordering these I always had them packed inside a crate of heavier rims, they were very easily damaged.
The pair I built for Mrs K in 1966 were 36 x 36, and were used until 1977. Several years ago after hanging in the garage for over 40 years, were sold with most of our bikes to a serious collector/restorer who rebuilt them and rode them in an Eroica.

Keith

 

[Holiocornolio]

Re:

Impressive. Takes me the best part of half a day to lace a 20 spoke radial front wheel. Truing is another half day plus! Good job it's therapeutic work for me. I daresay modern rims come out of the box a bit straighter than they did back in the day too. I do enjoy wheel building but I'm painfully aware that my wheels are built by a hobbyist and will last accordingly!

 

[keithglos]

I will try to describe the procedure for lacing a 36 spoke wheel in the 1960s, tangent crossed 3 times. Stand up to drop the spokes in, sit down for tightening and truing.
The rim spoke holes are normally staggered, often angled.

For right handed, take hub in left hand, and at least 9 spokes between thumb and forefinger all with threads pointing away from arm and fan them out.
Drop 9 spokes downwards through the upper flange alternate holes , and working from the valve hole feed each spoke through every 4th hole, fitting the spoke nipple about 2 or 3 turns.
Turn the wheel over, pick up and fan out at least 18 spokes, drop them down through the first now lower flange, then drop 9 downwards through the upper flange. It is usual to leave largest space at the valve hole, so you can see which hole to start with by turning the hub so that the first 9 spokes are in their final direction, and you can see which spoke hole to start with. Bear in mind the spokes from the inside of the flange will face opposite directions.
When you have these 18 spokes attached to the rim turn over and fit the last 9.

When fitting the second set of 9 twist the hub so that the first spokes are facing the right direction, then gather up the inside spokes from the second flange in a bunch and get them outside the rim so that you don't knit them in.

It takes far longer to explain this than doing it, and the direction of fitting the spokes into the rim is obvious when you do it so that you do not trap spokes.

This is the method I always used, and happens to be the same as large manufacturers used. You will see if you have an old Raleigh, Hercules or BSA with original wheels the spokes from the inside of the flanges are always in opposite directions.

Tools: To get the spoke nipples started I used a cranked screwdriver made from a bit of 1/8 inch mudguard stay one end hammered flat and shaped like a screwdriver with a little point in the middle of the blade this was cranked about half inch and a rotatable handle was fitted made from a rod brake component. The preferred spoke key was Cyclo type with 4 slots and shaped like old hub bearing cups. The curved shape was easy to spin round and didn't wear the fingers.

On the truing stand I normally used fingers rather than any guides to tension and true partly because are rims were not always very accurate varying both in width and roundness, quite often lumpy at the join.

My left thumb still has a slight lump at the knuckle.

Thats about the best I can do for now.

Keith

 

[Holiocornolio]

Great info. You do make it sound very easy and simple. I imagine it's mesmerising to watch a craftsman at his work. My method usually includes a lot of dropping of nipples, usually a few washers to be shaken out of the valve hole, the occasional misplaced, mislaced or even misthreaded spoke, and a healthy peppering of swearing.

 

[keithglos]

We didn't do many rims that needed washers. Most sprint rims were either wood insert or fitted ferrules which loaded both the surfaces of the rim. Commonly from Fiamme and Mavic, and the alloy wired on rims were generally straight and made of solid extrusion. Of course we had steel rims for commuter bikes, and Dunlop steel rims were well made.

Keith

 

[Holiocornolio]

100 gross = 14,400 enough spokes for 200 pairs of wheels. Although I could lace up a 40 hole wheel in around 3 minutes, an average cheap wheel would take about 30 minutes, decent racing wheel about 1 hour and the light 8 ounce Scheeren wood insert rims about 1.5 hrs.
In the 60s Beryl Burton was on Scheeren 8 ounce rims 24 spoke, imported by Ron Kitching. When ordering these I always had them packed inside a crate of heavier rims, they were very easily damaged.
The pair I built for Mrs K in 1966 were 36 x 36, and were used until 1977. Several years ago after hanging in the garage for over 40 years, were sold with most of our bikes to a serious collector/restorer who rebuilt them and rode them in an Eroica.

Keith

I'm afraid I was utterly ignorant of Beryl Burton's acheivements until I read your post. I start today a better informed person. What an inspiration. I loved the 2 hour record liquorice allsort story, I so hope it's true. Must be a source of pride to have built wheels that were ridden by such a force of nature!