Retro Full Suss - The good, the bad and the ugly?

[andrewl]

There's a couple here:

'98 XCE http://www.frameblitz.com/turner/turner-xce-frame-retro/ (this ones not far from you ya bugger!)

'02 XCE http://www.frameblitz.com/turner/turner-xce-full-suspension-w-wheels-headset-fork/

Both missing their shocks though and to obtain the correct 4" of travel you'll need to find the special Fox Vanilla or XR rockers. With the X rockes and a standar 1.5" stoke shock you'll get 3.6" of travel.

The blue frame has been for sale for ages and is overpriced. I've offered to buy it a few times previously...

 

[DoctorRad]

There is only one design of full suspension bike that both claims to, and does totally eliminate bob. That's the Giant NRS (No Resonance Suspension). The main reason why it eliminates bob is because it uses springs that are pre-loaded to the riders weight, the suspension can only move upwards. The reason for this is that forces from the rear wheel, not only push a mountain bike forwards but upwards. The NRS is the only suspension system designed specifically to use pre-loaded springs though various makes of air spring can be set for pre-loading and varios makes of bikes, including Lapierre's Zesty, use the NRS's Horst Link rear suspension Geometry.

I was going to say, having seen your photo of the bike further down the page, that it looked very much like a Horst Link set-up to me, with the pivot right behind the BB and a second in front of and below the rear axle. Do Giant license this from Specialized, or do they consider their variation not sufficiently similar?

I think 94/95 FSRs are lovely bikes. They've got Horst Link suspension, and feel like hardtails at least 80% of the time. Mine has an air shock, so I can stiffen things up in the rear if I feel the need. With the shock at one-psi-per-pound-body-weight, I rarely get any pedalling bob. That said, with only 60mm of travel, they're kind of a halfway house between a softtail and a full suspension frame.

Downsides? The S-Works versions come with alloy swingarm rods which are not the best in British conditions. I'm hoping to experiment with hardened steel rods and GT-LTS-style plastic bushing the next time mine needs a full strip down.

Dr. Matt...

 

[andrewl]

I was going to say, having seen your photo of the bike further down the page, that it looked very much like a Horst Link set-up to me, with the pivot right behind the BB and a second in front of and below the rear axle. Do Giant license this from Specialized, or do they consider their variation not sufficiently similar?

As you correctly point out the NRS is just a FSR/HL bike. The pivots (including the top shock mount above the seat tube pivot) are arranged so that chain tension extends the shock and locks out the rear. Braking forces also lock the rear.

Early Ellsworth Truths are set up exactly the same.

Ride wise the rear suspension is pretty ordinary for anything other than racing as they are only active when you aren't pedalling or on the brakes.

Giant didn't pay Specialized the royalty to sell in the US market (which you can get away with for a while when you are the biggest manufacturer) but this along with the fact their newer bikes ride so much better is the reason it was dropped.

 

[RockiMtn]

Very early 1997 Mount Vision with replacement swing arm. Hot roded with modern wheels and disk brakes. Rides like a dream

Rim brake version. Pic archived from an email I got from a local seller. Looked very interesting, but the bike was WAY too big for me.

 

[GrahamJohnWallace]

Giant didn't pay Specialized the royalty to sell in the US market (which you can get away with for a while when you are the biggest manufacturer) but this along with the fact their newer bikes ride so much better is the reason it was dropped.

I believe it to be true that Specialized allowed Giant to sell the NRS in the States, royalty free, for many years. However, Giant did have to pay royalties to Renault Sport for licenced use of thier NRS patent. What is unclear is why Giant stopped making the NRS?

*Did Specialized change their mind about the royalty free use of their "Horst" patent ?

*Did Giant want to stop paying royalties to Renault Sport for use of NRS

*Was the new "Maestro" suspension design actualy better than NRS or were sales in decline as NRS reached the end of its marketing life?

Whatever happened a range of NRS variants have and continue to be marketed in Europe.

are arranged so that chain tension extends the shock and locks out the rear. Braking forces also lock the rear.

The rear suspension never actually "locks out" at all. The chain tension just tries to extend the suspension against the negative spring in the shock. Even a small bump will overcome the extension force and activate the suspension.

The effects of the braking forces on the rear suspension are virtually unnoticeable.

 

[MJN]

Specialized tightened up their patent rights so Giant decided to stop selling the NRS in the States,which Scott also did with the previous generation Genius and which also made Dave Turner go faux bar :cry:

 

[GrahamJohnWallace]

Specialized tightened up their patent rights so Giant decided to stop selling the NRS in the States,which Scott also did with the previous generation Genius and which also made Dave Turner go faux bar

Giant stopped making the NRS in 2005/6, the same time as Specialized were enforcing their patent rights over other companies that made Horst link type suspensions. This implies that Giants replacement of NRS with their own "Maestro" suspension geometry, may have been one of commercial necessity, rather than the technical improvement they claim.

 

[andrewl]

Specialized tightened up their patent rights so Giant decided to stop selling the NRS in the States,which Scott also did with the previous generation Genius and which also made Dave Turner go faux bar :cry:

Turner went Faux bar because of Ellsworth's ICT - which is just FSR but the imaginary pivot point remains in front of the front axle line.

Ellsworths patent is also subject to a lot of debate on the FSR front and also because Turner had "ICT" bike on the market in 97 with the Afterburner.

 

[DoctorRad]

Turner went Faux bar...

I thought Turner was licensing the FSR patent from Specialized at one point? What happened there?

 

[dainesefreak]

Ok it looks like I've entered the world of Proflex ownership. I'll stick up some pics when I get it.