Retro bikes versus New bikes. (Have bikes really improved?)

all this just makes me think what we'll have in 50 years time, can the bike evolve any much more than it has already? I think not... I think bikes have basically gone as far as they can go, with regards to how they operate and perform (person gets on a man-made structure and rolls along on two wheels) ...bigger travel suspension, better brakes, more gears, but the basic idea will still be the same...

modern bikes perform wayy better than old bikes...but they wont be revered like old ones, simply because there's nothing new about what they do... old mountain bikes will always be held in higher regard because before their conception people just weren't cycling down offroad trails at high speed, having the time of their lives :cool:

Old bikes 1 Modern bikes 0
 
retroklein":fa3pztq6 said:
modern bikes perform wayy better than old bikes...

but they dont, thats the whole point, there are very good 'old' bikes and some very bad 'new' bikes.

Full suspension bikes have improved but thats the 'bigger is better' syndrome more than anything else.

Fully rigid is pretty much forgotten
 
legrandefromage":3uec9xuf said:
but they dont, thats the whole point, there are very good 'old' bikes and some very bad 'new' bikes.

come on, surely you don't think the klunkers of old can out-perform the latest designed full suspension thoroughbred?? also the comparison you're making would have to be an even one.. if you pitched a great old bike up against a bad new bike then that evens up the odds considerably, but on an even-field you'd be carrying your old bike home in pieces,

be the first guy to rip a world cup downhill course on an old klunker, you'd probably be the last as well
 
Neil":11dab5rq said:
marin man":11dab5rq said:
Yes stop it now it is hurting my ears :cry:
Um, not that I'm in any way interested in the perpetuation of a polarising topic of discussion, or this one in particular, you understand, but all the same... is somebody making you read this thread?

I just don't get - nor ever have for that matter - the people who pointlessly say this sort of thing about discussions and how they should stop. I mean, FFS, if you don't wanna read it, if you don't like the discussion, then FFS, for all that is holy and good, for the saving of the light, don't destroy my plantation... and stop reading the damn discussion if it causes you so much angst.

Or on the other hand, you could do what you have here, stamp your feet, pout, and tell others to stop discussing it.

I understand your point but a little light hearted mickey taking which was essentially what I was doing never done anyone any harm ;) I just thought that the clue was in the title "Dohh" ;) Retrobike is what this site is called it's not called "whatsis name bike co.or Modern bike where all frames are made in the same taiwanese factory and everyone rides almost to the point of destruction and let's the bike take the hits" :roll: I watched some modern bikers recently jumping at the local skate park and when they landed each time there was a mini earthquake :shock: Yes I know that technology moves on but when it does it leaves considerable amounts of finnesse and skill behind does it not ;)
 
Many a reference to 'performance' within this debate... it's worth considering one's real meaning of performance expected from the device(s) in question. I, looking backwards with this hobby, expect nostalgia, differentiation, satisfaction and challenge, each time I open a box containing a twenty year old frame. In this regard, retro bikes deliver wholly and fully in a way a contemporary offering will never do (for me).

Do I want to ride a lap faster at MM by buying a contemporary machine - no, that has no appeal whatsoever. I do feel the need to want to pay modern prices for the reduction of 2 or 3 minutes - on the contrary, my older bikes extend the value and the challenge! BTW - I believe modern XC courses are a pale shadow of the courses we used to ride - not because of bikes and rider capability, but because of organiser liability.

Maybe if you factor outright human 'competitiveness' into your performance mix, the value of a new machine changes - I suspect most of us are not of the elite category, so what's a few minutes traded against all the other factors that make up the broader 'performance'?! Here, btw, is where we get thrills in chasing down poorer/unfit riders who have mistakenly IMHO invested in modern bikes...they would get beter value by learning/training on £150 retro bike before they blow £2000 on a modern!

Incidentally, I think that contemporary machines distance the rider from the feel and the direct sensation of the terrain. Yes, travelling faster; yes, in more 'comfort' (if you wanted comfort you wouldn't be MTBing!); and yes, accidents incrementally more serious at higher speeds. The only two apsects of modern bicycles that hold my interest are the general advancement of the breed (although there has never been a repeat of the supremely fertile period circa 1990-1992 - see particularly the MTB shows in Anaheim); and the notion that a more comfortable bike would save energy, therefore be useful for longer distances. Sadly, I don't do or have the time for all day rides, so even that performance advancement is of questionable value to me.

Lastly, think from the angle of the modern customer and the modern bicycle enterprise. Growth is everything in business - to grow you have to win new customers and also retain them - to do that, you must make customers' products obsolete as soon as you dare! Hence the mix of bogus and real advancements that annually come to market. A great example of this would be the elevated stays explosion in 1990 - virtually every manufacturer jumped that bandwagon in short order (without product testing in most cases) and now considered a poort concept, they represent excellent 'performance' to me - cheap, weirdly nostalgic, hard and thrilling to ride fast - welcome to the performance and value-led world of the retro biker! :)

Mr K
 
retroklein":aq7ah5j0 said:
... old mountain bikes will always be held in higher regard because before their conception people just weren't cycling down offroad trails at high speed, having the time of their lives :cool:

I think you'll find that they were, they just didn't have bikes built for the purpose, I have ridden off road as fast as I can since around 1974 (age 6) it what a huge amount of kids did back then, jumps and all, I just got faster and further afield when mtbs appeared.
 
CarrotCake":3vulnjjs said:
Old bikes - new bikes - skinny tyres - wide perished 2.1 Smokes - narrow duel compound, CAD designed bluetac rubber..

Grab one out of the shed and enjoy it's refinements, quirks, speed, 'bad day design', revolutionary designs..

Comparing new and old is futile. I appreciate all my bikes for what they are and enjoy riding for a host of different reasons. They are a bit like friends; each one has its own character. Some of the retro ones have grown old gracefully. Although the years have wisdom have stood them in good stead to weather the test of time, they tend to be a bit old and forgetful, occasionally forgetting what they supposed to do and unsteady on their feet - spitting you into a bush.

Other retro ones have had a hard life on the piss, a bit of middle aged spread, look a bit weathered and have worn out creaking joint - but a bit like a blacksmith from Bolton, are hard as nails as will continue to work and be subject to abuse for years to come.

Modern ones can be the youngsters that are all talk and image, but no sustenance. Other modern ones in the fleet are young prodigies of the retro steeds good blood line and will go on to be refined professionals…. or burly piss heads or that will do a good job for years to come.
Ride them - enjoy them, regardless of age.

What a great take on the matter!!

OK I've been MTBing since 1989 aged 12 and I love all bikes.. old, new.. steel, carbon.. ok I have a particular passion for one particular make (OK maybe a weird OCD type obsession) and I've only ever ridden about three other brands and that was while just taking a mates ride round the block, but that's not to say that I won't give respect for someone on a 20 year old Trek/GT/Orange or a brand new Specialized.

Don't we all do this for the same reason? We love bikes!! Its in the blood. We love gettin' messy, whether out there in the wilderness or in the kitchen with bits of crank everywhere (sometimes I wish I had a garage). Whatever your opinion on 'new vs old' don't we all share the same passion for ripping up trails, bombing down mental gradients at a mental mph, getting as much air as possible from any kind of bump and pissing off grumpy-ass ramblers with their stupid walking sticks/makeshift prop-stands?

I guess it doesn't really matter what you ride as long as you've got a big smile on your chops and you're having a rad time :D
 
mrkawasaki":2jk7resl said:
Many a reference to 'performance' within this debate... it's worth considering one's real meaning of performance expected from the device(s) in question. I, looking backwards with this hobby, expect nostalgia, differentiation, satisfaction and challenge, each time I open a box containing a twenty year old frame. In this regard, retro bikes deliver wholly and fully in a way a contemporary offering will never do (for me).

Do I want to ride a lap faster at MM by buying a contemporary machine - no, that has no appeal whatsoever. I do feel the need to want to pay modern prices for the reduction of 2 or 3 minutes - on the contrary, my older bikes extend the value and the challenge! BTW - I believe modern XC courses are a pale shadow of the courses we used to ride - not because of bikes and rider capability, but because of organiser liability.

Maybe if you factor outright human 'competitiveness' into your performance mix, the value of a new machine changes - I suspect most of us are not of the elite category, so what's a few minutes traded against all the other factors that make up the broader 'performance'?! Here, btw, is where we get thrills in chasing down poorer/unfit riders who have mistakenly IMHO invested in modern bikes...they would get beter value by learning/training on £150 retro bike before they blow £2000 on a modern!

Incidentally, I think that contemporary machines distance the rider from the feel and the direct sensation of the terrain. Yes, travelling faster; yes, in more 'comfort' (if you wanted comfort you wouldn't be MTBing!); and yes, accidents incrementally more serious at higher speeds. The only two apsects of modern bicycles that hold my interest are the general advancement of the breed (although there has never been a repeat of the supremely fertile period circa 1990-1992 - see particularly the MTB shows in Anaheim); and the notion that a more comfortable bike would save energy, therefore be useful for longer distances. Sadly, I don't do or have the time for all day rides, so even that performance advancement is of questionable value to me.

Lastly, think from the angle of the modern customer and the modern bicycle enterprise. Growth is everything in business - to grow you have to win new customers and also retain them - to do that, you must make customers' products obsolete as soon as you dare! Hence the mix of bogus and real advancements that annually come to market. A great example of this would be the elevated stays explosion in 1990 - virtually every manufacturer jumped that bandwagon in short order (without product testing in most cases) and now considered a poort concept, they represent excellent 'performance' to me - cheap, weirdly nostalgic, hard and thrilling to ride fast - welcome to the performance and value-led world of the retro biker! :)

Mr K

Perfect!

now why wont my brain let me type like that? Thats loosely what I've been trying to say in short bursts of forum flatulence.
 
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