Raleigh 753 - all by SBDU?

[one-eyed_jim]

Not quite relevant to the original question, but this 1976 magazine article (for those who haven't seen it already) describes 753 frames being tested under O'Donovan's supervision at "the Carlton Worksop" (sic):

http://www.velo-pages.com/main.php?g2_itemId=16945

but mentions that "the work continued at the new Specialist Cycle Development Division ... at Ilkeston".

There's also a 1980 test of a Raleigh Team 753:

http://www.velo-pages.com/main.php?g2_itemId=19812

 

[bikemeister2000]

This sounds about right to me; Ilkeston was one of the very first - if not THE very first - Reynolds-certified 753 builders. The site closed around 1989 with production moving to Special Products at Nottingham, though I'm not 100% certain when 753-framed Raleighs stopped appearing (but recall Barrie Clarke and David Baker riding such frames for both road and CX early 1990s). I don't think the Carlton site (closed 1981 and - I think - re-incarnated as the Lightweight Division at Nottingham, retaining W-prefix frame numbers) was 753-approved.

Yes, that's about the size of it. After the closure of Ilkeston, SBDU was moved to the Nottingham site together with it's mentor the late great Gerald O'Donovan.

Assisting him, and doing the actual frame building were Preson Dickman and Dave Brown. Two of the very best with 753, in fact two of the best full stop.

It was absorbed into the Lightweight Department, which then became Raleigh Special Products Division and was managed by David Bednall.

 

[roadking]

Raleigh and the SBDU.

There often appears a great deal of confusion regarding Carlton, the SBDU and the Lightweight Unit.

The Velopages article (American) serves to confuse more: without going into too much detail -

1. Raleigh took over Carlton Cycles (Worksop) in 1960. Carlton Worksop closed in 1980.

2. Specialist Bicycle Development Unit (SBDU) opened in 1974 at Ilkeston.

2. The Lightweight Unit (LU) at Nottingham - possibly created around the time the Carlton factory closed as the LU continued using the"W"Worksop prefix on frame numbers.

The LU did not build in 753, alhough Carlton were often at the forefront of materials innovation - under the directorship of Gerald O'Donovan.

Hope this helps.

Roadking.

 

[one-eyed_jim]

Re: Raleigh and the SBDU.

There often appears a great deal of confusion regarding Carlton, the SBDU and the Lightweight Unit.

The Velopages article (American) serves to confuse more:

I've just read the article through again and I don't think it contradicts anything you wrote above.

Carlton and Raleigh Professional (not Team Professional) frames were being made at Worksop in 1976 when the article was written.

The Special Bicycle Development Unit was opened at Ilkeston in 1974 as described in the article.

The writer claims to have visited Worksop in 1974 and seen frames under testing there. If Ilkeston only opened in 1974 and a 753 frame was available for Dave Lloyd in October of that year, it suggests that development could have begun in Worksop. The article describes a programme of new materials testing in Worksop.

Tha article doesn't mention the Lightweight Unit: it was written before the Lightweight Unit opened.

There were one or two little slips (calling the RRA the "Road Racing Association" instead of the Road Records Association for example) but the story presented seems to tally with the facts as I understand them and as others here have set them out. What is it that adds to the confusion, in your view?

 

[roadking]

As to"adding"to the confusion, I did say there appears to be a great deal of confusion...meaning on this subject on this forum.

The article by the American doesn't help.

I'd call it a desire - my desire - for a 360 degree view of things.

Roadking.

 

[bikemeister2000]

The LU did not build in 753, alhough Carlton were often at the forefront of materials innovation - under the directorship of Gerald O'Donovan.

The above statement is untrue.

As I have said, SBDU were incorporated into the Lightweight department, which subsequently became Raleigh Special Products Division.

753, 853, other Reynolds tubesets and Titanium were ALL used by SPD.

Gerald also played a key roll on the deveopment of the bonding process for Dyna-Tech. He had in his office a frame he called a "ferrocarbotitalum".
It was a bonded frame with a story that each tube of either steel, carbon or titanium was specifically chosen for it's properties in each specific location and then bonded into bulge formed alloy lugs.

The reality was that it was simply to show that he could successfully join dissimilar materials into one frame.



Regards

 

[roadking]

SBDU.

My comment applies to the SBDU prior to its effective demise (as a separate, autonomous entity) in 1990.

The Lightweight Unit was based in Nottingham (and in a sense carried on where Carlton were prior to the 1960 Raleigh takeover) and the SBDU in Ilkeston - from where I ordered my frameset in 1986.

I have little interest in Raleigh after 1990, and any comments made will always reflect this.

I have one SBDU frameset, one LU frameset, and an LU bicycle all bought new in the 1980s. The SDBU from Ilkeston and both LUs from one of Raleigh's premier dealers (at that time).

Therefore my comments are correct. The LU did not build in 753, as that was the province of the SBDU: and Carlton were at the forefront of materials innovation - for example developing carbon fibre framesets (though not for retail sale) as early as 1972.

Roadking.

 

[bikemeister2000]

SBDU at Nottingham was part of Raleigh Lightweight Division and did braze Reynolds 753 in Nottingham.

I say this as a fact.

I worked at Raleigh between 1977 and 2000, was a part of the management team for Raleigh Lightweight at the time SBDU was brought back from Ilkeston and worked closely with on the development of Dyna-Tech with Gerald until his retirement, becoming Product Manager of Raleigh Special Products in 1995.

Regards

 

[bikemeister2000]

I guess it's all about perspective.

Looking from the outside it may have appeared that SBDU was seperate, even in Nottingham.

Looking from the inside, it really was an integral part of the Lightweight division, a very important part.

It produced frames for our teams, including Castorama, and also contributed to the development of other products, including Dyna-Tech and then our plasma-arc welding of titanium frames.

Whatever the opinion, it is sadly missed and the final closure was a great loss to cycling.

Regards

 

[lastpubrunner]

I've found the previous postings to be very interesting indeed ! (Keep 'em coming !)

I thought you may be interested to see a pics of my bike - it is bona fide SBDU frame (The frame number is SB7953) from Ilkeston, just that the story is that it was finished as a Carlton rather than a Raleigh.

It was advertised as follows :

"This frame was made in the mid 80's at the Raleigh factory at Ilkeston, and badged as a Carlton by Raleigh Director Gerald O'Donovan who wanted to resurrect the Carlton Brand. It was used for racing only. After a few race sessions the frame was resprayed in the 90's at Harry Hall cycles in Manchester and rebadged as a Raleigh. It has not been built up since this respray and the raleigh badge not put on.

The frame is 22" and is fantastic condition.There are absolutely no dents or dings. The only minor problems are a couple of paint chips on the top tube and a slight bubbling of paint on one of fork legs".

Surprisingly, it has the 'tab' under the top tube, which was to hold a racing number. Did Carlton 753s take part in racing ?

Interestingly, it has Shimano rear dropouts and Campagnolo front dropouts. The fork isn't a replacement - it's number matches that of the frame. The frame had been resprayed at some time before I got it, but both front & rear dropouts show signs of wear - they appear to be original.

I've recently been contacted by another SBDU owner (of a frame with 531 tubing) which has the same 'mixture' of dropouts. Anyone else got a SBDU frame with Shimano dropouts or a mixture of the two ? It seems an odd thing to have happened and I've yet to hear a reason why.

I can't wait to get mine built up. In a way, although my frame is a genuine one as built by the SBDU, I suppose that it isn't as desirable as ones finished in Raleigh colours. Mind you, there is an advantage, in as much I feel that I've more scope in the choice of components that I fit, as it doesn't 'have' to look like 99% of the Raleighs built by the SBDU.

Since my frame has a SBDU number, does that mean it 'must' be a Raleigh, rather than a Carlton ?