Question about steel frame quality
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Uncle Grumpy
Devout Dirtbag
It's hard to answer that with a definitive "hierarchy" of frame materials. Some frames were lighter, some were livelier, some were stiffer, some were stronger, and a lot depends on the geometry and the construction.
I'm a huge fan of Tange Prestige. I also like the Dedaccai tubes used in the higher end Konas in the early 90s and I like the upper end of the True Temper range.
I've never ridden Columbus Max OR but I have a Max road frame that is sweet. Some of the stuff from Reynolds these days is pretty nice.
For mass produced stuff, the Kona Explosif is a classic. I like the "Kona Double Butted Chromo" (whatever that is) of my 96 Lava Dome, but I think it's the geometry that makes that bike ride nice more than the mediocre tubeset.
Grumps
I'm a huge fan of Tange Prestige. I also like the Dedaccai tubes used in the higher end Konas in the early 90s and I like the upper end of the True Temper range.
I've never ridden Columbus Max OR but I have a Max road frame that is sweet. Some of the stuff from Reynolds these days is pretty nice.
For mass produced stuff, the Kona Explosif is a classic. I like the "Kona Double Butted Chromo" (whatever that is) of my 96 Lava Dome, but I think it's the geometry that makes that bike ride nice more than the mediocre tubeset.
Grumps
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I think 50% of it is the way the tubing is used.
The best riding frame FOR ME that I own is an alpinestars with mostly Hi-Ten tubing. The entire bike cost £299 when new.
At the other end I have a Tange Prestige DB Axis which rides very nice but the race geometry (very quick steering) makes it not as nice to ride as the alpinestars.
I think 50% of it is the way the tubing is used.
The best riding frame FOR ME that I own is an alpinestars with mostly Hi-Ten tubing. The entire bike cost £299 when new.
At the other end I have a Tange Prestige DB Axis which rides very nice but the race geometry (very quick steering) makes it not as nice to ride as the alpinestars.
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Most of the modern frames are still using tubing from the mid to late 90's, if you discount stainless steel tubing, steel tubes had pretty much reached their pinnacle by about 95'. For my two penneth I think it is a question of volume during the 90's most manufacturers had a raft of quality steel frames in their ranges, some aluminium, and fewer carbon, so manufacturing was geared mostly to steel and alu. Now with the floods of cheap carbon frames manufacturing is geared to producing these frames, so as a result the price of making steel frames comes at a premium, so basically if you find a good steel frame from the 90's with a geometry you like the feel of it will be every bit as good as the modern frames. IMHO
Most of the modern frames are still using tubing from the mid to late 90's, if you discount stainless steel tubing, steel tubes had pretty much reached their pinnacle by about 95'. For my two penneth I think it is a question of volume during the 90's most manufacturers had a raft of quality steel frames in their ranges, some aluminium, and fewer carbon, so manufacturing was geared mostly to steel and alu. Now with the floods of cheap carbon frames manufacturing is geared to producing these frames, so as a result the price of making steel frames comes at a premium, so basically if you find a good steel frame from the 90's with a geometry you like the feel of it will be every bit as good as the modern frames. IMHO
xxnick1975
Old School Grand Master
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just got a columbus genius frame and forks and i'm well impressed with that
just got a columbus genius frame and forks and i'm well impressed with that
Define "mass produced"? 10,000 frames a year, 1,000 frames a year? 500??
Of course each manufacturer had a few steel framed Mtb's in their product line, and the quality of the tubing used would have varied according to the price point each model was aimed at. Generally the lower down the range the lower the grade of tubing, usually.
As mentioned above, steel tubing hasn't advanced hugely since the 90's like aluminium and carbon fibre has, hence most modern bikes (excluding supermarket BSO's) are made from these two materials, and as such a modern steel frame is more of a niche product and hence commands a price premium.
Also as already mentioned, the geometry has a lot to do with how a frame "feels" to ride, and geo has changed a lot since the 90's, in accordance with how many people now use their Mtb's and the type of riding and terrain they ride on.
I doubt you can really compare retro steel and modern steel on the same playing field.
Of the truly mass produced 90's bikes I always rated the Orange Prestige (I'm biased) with its Tange Ultimate Superlight MTB tubing, and the Kona Explosif, the Explosif was always a good benchmark imo.
But I've been surprised by how "nicely" other, perhaps slightly lower quality (or slightly heavier weight), steel framed Mtb's can ride, the Univega was a good example of this.
Of course each manufacturer had a few steel framed Mtb's in their product line, and the quality of the tubing used would have varied according to the price point each model was aimed at. Generally the lower down the range the lower the grade of tubing, usually.
As mentioned above, steel tubing hasn't advanced hugely since the 90's like aluminium and carbon fibre has, hence most modern bikes (excluding supermarket BSO's) are made from these two materials, and as such a modern steel frame is more of a niche product and hence commands a price premium.
Also as already mentioned, the geometry has a lot to do with how a frame "feels" to ride, and geo has changed a lot since the 90's, in accordance with how many people now use their Mtb's and the type of riding and terrain they ride on.
I doubt you can really compare retro steel and modern steel on the same playing field.
Of the truly mass produced 90's bikes I always rated the Orange Prestige (I'm biased) with its Tange Ultimate Superlight MTB tubing, and the Kona Explosif, the Explosif was always a good benchmark imo.
But I've been surprised by how "nicely" other, perhaps slightly lower quality (or slightly heavier weight), steel framed Mtb's can ride, the Univega was a good example of this.
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The 'quality' of a steel frame is difficult to quantify definitively ... The price goes up due to the complexity of the butts and how thinly the walls are drawn.
Stiffness and weight are linked, in the sense that a lighter frame will not be as stiff as heavier one. A high stiffness and low weight are both desirable traits, but to a large extent are mutually exclusive - You pay your money and take your choice.
The best frames are the ones that balance weight with stiffness IMO.
Certainly, these days, steel frames have oversized tubing, massive head tubes and loads of gussets in line with regulation and modern riding styles. Older frames were not as overbuilt so could be made lighter.
I have always found the KONA hardtails - even the cheaper ones, so be surprisingly low weight... The heaviest HT frame I ever bought was a 'quad butted' LOOK mi-90 - felt like a boat anchor.
The 'quality' of a steel frame is difficult to quantify definitively ... The price goes up due to the complexity of the butts and how thinly the walls are drawn.
Stiffness and weight are linked, in the sense that a lighter frame will not be as stiff as heavier one. A high stiffness and low weight are both desirable traits, but to a large extent are mutually exclusive - You pay your money and take your choice.
The best frames are the ones that balance weight with stiffness IMO.
Certainly, these days, steel frames have oversized tubing, massive head tubes and loads of gussets in line with regulation and modern riding styles. Older frames were not as overbuilt so could be made lighter.
I have always found the KONA hardtails - even the cheaper ones, so be surprisingly low weight... The heaviest HT frame I ever bought was a 'quad butted' LOOK mi-90 - felt like a boat anchor.
My definition of a mass produced frame is a frame that had been produced in larger amounts, that is not too expensive and also easily available, e.g. made by Bianchi, Giant, Marin, Wheeler, Specialized, Raleigh etc.
If the old frames are often as good as the modern ones, the main differences are only the geometry (today all MTBs have slope frames and a higher streering tube) and the disc brake mount. However, a disc brake mount can be bought here for few money: http://www.cycle-frames.com/bicycle-fra ... MOUNT.html
Here is a 90s Stumpjumper with welded disc brake mounts: http://eisenschweinkader.org/g1/album/album136/s10.jpg
In my opinion, this is a modification that preserves the vintage bike appeal.
If the old frames are often as good as the modern ones, the main differences are only the geometry (today all MTBs have slope frames and a higher streering tube) and the disc brake mount. However, a disc brake mount can be bought here for few money: http://www.cycle-frames.com/bicycle-fra ... MOUNT.html
Here is a 90s Stumpjumper with welded disc brake mounts: http://eisenschweinkader.org/g1/album/album136/s10.jpg
In my opinion, this is a modification that preserves the vintage bike appeal.
I have a 92 Stumpy with Tange Prestige. It was the first decent MTB I owned and has done everything I could ever want: hacking, touring, racing. I had it blasted & resprayed by Argos about 5 years ago because I plan on keeping it for another 20 years or so, and that does seem realistic.
I also picked up a low-end DiamondBack Topanga as a project; that has True Temper tubing and still rides really responsively.
I was given a Ridgeback road bike with Tange infinity. I'm guessing that may be road-specific tubing, but again, it's a super ride; light, fast but still comfortable.
I also picked up a low-end DiamondBack Topanga as a project; that has True Temper tubing and still rides really responsively.
I was given a Ridgeback road bike with Tange infinity. I'm guessing that may be road-specific tubing, but again, it's a super ride; light, fast but still comfortable.
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