Public sector strikes on Wednesday

[technodup]

Perhaps modernisation, perhaps using principles from the business world to streamline and re-engineer process where it helps the SERVICE, but not profit. Better SERVICE.

What if a private enterprise could provide the same service at less cost? Or better service at the same cost? As you say it's the service that matters, not who provides it surely?

Shit private schools or hospitals wouldn't make money. There's an inherent motive there to drive quality which imo isn't necessarily a bad thing. I would love the NHS to be dismantled in my lifetime but doubt any government would have the balls despite the improved outcomes other systems provide. For some reason we are wedded to the idea that the state should educate us, care for us, house us and be involved at every level of our lives. Why? They're utterly shit at most of it.

(I have a feeling that this mere suggestion might just invoke an outpouring of pro-state dogma equal to any 'business is best' rhetoric...)

Are there actually many / any job sectors that have any true job security any more?

Civil servants?

 

[ededwards]

The whole pension debate seems to get more complicated the more that you think about it - just as you start to get a handle on all the statistics flying around they are suddenly discredited (or are they?) and confusion again reigns, at least in my head. I'm not sure what to make of it but accept that I must take personal responsibility as I am clearly parasitical scum who has single handedly bought the country to it's knees. This is exacerbated by my poor ability on a bike and I strongly suspect the two must be interconnected. I also can't ignore my culpability for most of the woes of the age although, sadly, I am not responsible for Lily Allen's baby nor Sienna Miller's enigmatic smile (the enigma being how can this talentless no mark make a very tidy living).

For some reason we are wedded to the idea that the state should educate us, care for us, house us and be involved at every level of our lives. Why? They're utterly shit at most of it.

To boil it all down to the absurdly reductive "public sector = bad, private sector = good" does no one any credit or any favours (and as Tom noted earlier, defining what is 'public sector' and what is 'private sector' isn't particularly easy or meaningful).

 

[Neil]

Perhaps modernisation, perhaps using principles from the business world to streamline and re-engineer process where it helps the SERVICE, but not profit. Better SERVICE.

What if a private enterprise could provide the same service at less cost? Or better service at the same cost? As you say it's the service that matters, not who provides it surely?

That's the problem, though - business, private sector is ruled by cost, budget, profit, KPIs - which is great when you're running a business.

But as many will testify, not so great when you're running a service. That's why you have head teachers and schools obsessed with stats and league tables - police service that has become obsessed with being able to show on paper, sorry, spreadsheet, that they're tough on crime - so you market a crime, setup an automated means of detecting it, along the way subvert some rights, get rid of loads of trafpol, then show on paper how well you're doing. That's why it can be the devil's own job of getting any interest from the police, unless whatever you're reporting is easy to show some resolution.

What you end up with something that's not a service in anything other than notional name - and then you have the people being measured like a business, rather than a service, that simply will be motivated to show how they are meeting their KPIs rather than actually providing a good service.

Think about it in these terms, there's probably an unquantifiable, yet all the same, very real benefit from having bobbies on the beat, showing a regular and clear presence, in attitude of people in society, and preventing crime - yet how do you quantify that on paper? So, OK then, the numbers don't add up - yet we all know that there's some value. So then we get PCSOs - yet the very people who the presence truly affects, are sufficiently clued to realise that this isn't anything like the same deterrent.

Money and business doesn't solve everything. Especially not where services are concerned.

I'm not suggesting they have nothing to learn from the business world - clearly there's always some aspects, in terms of organisation, structure, process, finance that has some cross-over.

However, I'm convinced that many of the services have been severely damaged - perhaps irreparably - by the political arrogance that they've been subject to.

Shit private schools or hospitals wouldn't make money. There's an inherent motive there to drive quality which imo isn't necessarily a bad thing.

I'm not sure that the drive for quality is inherent.

I think meeting KPIs, budgets, and veering off from anything unprofitable is what private sector institutions will do. If quality can be involved, all well and good, but there's a bottom line.

I would love the NHS to be dismantled in my lifetime but doubt any government would have the balls despite the improved outcomes other systems provide. For some reason we are wedded to the idea that the state should educate us, care for us, house us and be involved at every level of our lives. Why? They're utterly shit at most of it.

I don't think we are wedded to that idea that the state provides it directly.

I think most in society are supportive of the idea that taxation that provides key / core services for all, can work - no more, no less. Perhaps because some have more foresight / longsight than "I'm alright, Jack", perhaps because of some recognition than if left to purely commerce, then the vulnerable in society (not necessarily the same as the malingering or scrounging) would have no (or at least very poor) access to things we view as essential.

(I have a feeling that this mere suggestion might just invoke an outpouring of pro-state dogma equal to any 'business is best' rhetoric...)

I'm far from the state being all important and running everything. What I have learnt, witnessed and realised overly the last couple of decades, though, is that there are some things that business does very well, and there are always things that need to improve, move on, modernise, learn from other rationales. All that said, though, I've learnt that business largely does well at surviving on profit and power - we all need that. What it's crap at, is doing things that aren't easily demonstrated in terms of KPIs, but are more preventative, personable, or equitable to all in society.

Are there actually many / any job sectors that have any true job security any more?

Civil servants?

When I worked in the public sector, 20 years ago (and I suspect the term civil servant could be applied) my position was no more secure than when I moved to the private sector a few years later - perhaps less so.

 

[velomaniac]

I dont have a problem with the private sector replacing the public sector in a whole gamut of areas but the government must have strong control and teeth. in the NHS where I started my career during Maggies rule we were having various ancillary services like cleaners etc privatised. I believed then and still do that virtually all branches of the NHS including the nurses and doctors could be contracted out. The problem then and very likely now though would be the government would try and abdicate any control over the system so that contractors could cuts costs, agreed levels of service etc. A central government control of all the contractors with the power to enforce standards, revoke contracts, keep everyone on there toes I think could work. We do need a nanny state in so much that it ensures all citizens are provided for regardless of income and that we remain the envy of many other nations. We dont need all the people who work for the government to actually be employed by the government through its various levels and services. We do need a civil service core with teeth !
As for pensions the contractors to the government and the businesses in the UK as a whole must be compelled to provide a standard approved pension maybe not as good as public sector workers expect but not as bad as many now have. We cannot adopt a pure capitalist everyone for himself approach, that way lies much unpleasantness as seen in many nations of the world. But we who are public sector workers must face the facts that those not in our position are unlikely to see our point of view and without that support then ultimately we may lose the day !

 

[technodup]

Money and business doesn't solve everything. Especially not where services are concerned.

I'm not saying they do. Some businesses are shit and deserve to fail- I worked for one. But I would rather have an open system where any business can compete if they wish. No reason why the NHS shouldn't compete too, if it's as good as some believe then it would surely do well.

And as for money it would be nice if politicians accepted that increased spending isn't the answer to everything like they've been telling us forever. Look where that's got us.

I dont have a problem with the private sector replacing the public sector in a whole gamut of areas but the government must have strong control and teeth.

I saw a post elsewhere which basically said government should regulate everything and run nothing. That would suit me.

 

[marky2484]

"Neil wrote:
Are there actually many / any job sectors that have any true job security any more?

Civil servants?"

I'm a civil servant. For the last 10 years, I have had no,zero job security. Most of my colleagues have been redundoed, I no longer have an actual office, instead, I work from my spare room, available to work at all hours, using a hand held computer and a 3g signal.

And the work I do is gradually being siphoned off to private sector organisations. And,please, believe me when I tell you that you REALLY don't want them doing my job.

Really don't know how much more flexible, adaptive etc I can be. The Daily Mail caricature of the gold plated,job for life pen pusher seems pretty far off from where I'm sitting.
:roll:

 

[Neil]

Money and business doesn't solve everything. Especially not where services are concerned.

I'm not saying they do. Some businesses are shit and deserve to fail- I worked for one. But I would rather have an open system where any business can compete if they wish. No reason why the NHS shouldn't compete too, if it's as good as some believe then it would surely do well.

Sorry, I disagree - well I disagree as an absolute.

Sure, there's some things that competition does help. What I don't think needs competition is things like the police service, the fire service. And certain aspects of the health service, certain bits of the education system. That's not to say no business involvement or contracting out of services - I'm not of the view that everything has to be on the public sector's books. I'm just convinced that these services have been pursued and hunted as if they can be purely businesses, and as a result, have suffered, as has the rest of society as a result, when it should be apparent to all, that not everything that services do, can be measured in the same way as a for-profit business would.

And for things like public transport - which used to be considered a service - in the main, I'd agree, that competition serves well. But in the unprofitable areas, that still need a SERVICE, not so. And with successive governments determined to pursue the tax-the-shit-outta-the-motorist agenda for the best part of the last two decades, I'm far from convinced that all public transport can be solved purely by business, without some gummint involvement.

And as for money it would be nice if politicians accepted that increased spending isn't the answer to everything like they've been telling us forever. Look where that's got us.

Agreed on that - simply chucking money, and overly imposing business practice, levels of middle-management, consultants, industries in their own right, required to administer some of these services like huge, monolithic businesses hasn't helped.

Too much tinkering, too much deviation from core purpose, too much throwing money at them, too much assumptions on fiscal-ising everything, too much bloody politicking, then too much bloody cuts, when the business plan needs to meet the spread.

 

[Neil]

"Neil wrote:
Are there actually many / any job sectors that have any true job security any more?

Civil servants?"

Just want to set the record straight - I wrote the question - the answer ("Civil servants?") weren't my work, squire. Begging you're pardon for the interruption, and all.

Really don't know how much more flexible, adaptive etc I can be. The Daily Mail caricature of the gold plated,job for life pen pusher seems pretty far off from where I'm sitting.
:roll:

Well I have no recent experience, not since nearly 20 years ago - but what I would say, is that there was no gold-plated, job for life when I worked for the gummint way back, and all the people I once worked with, have all been moved to either the private sector, or "let go" quite some time ago.

Perhaps there was and still is some of these jobs working in the public sector, with good job security - but from my experience, a long time ago, now, I certainly didn't feel like I was giving up a job-for-life - far from it.

 

[technodup]

Money and business doesn't solve everything. Especially not where services are concerned.

I'm not saying they do. Some businesses are shit and deserve to fail- I worked for one. But I would rather have an open system where any business can compete if they wish. No reason why the NHS shouldn't compete too, if it's as good as some believe then it would surely do well.

Sorry, I disagree - well I disagree as an absolute.

Sure, there's some things that competition does help. What I don't think needs competition is things like the police service, the fire service. And certain aspects of the health service, certain bits of the education system. That's not to say no business involvement or contracting out of services - I'm not of the view that everything has to be on the public sector's books. I'm just convinced that these services have been pursued and hunted as if they can be purely businesses, and as a result, have suffered, as has the rest of society as a result, when it should be apparent to all, that not everything that services do, can be measured in the same way as a for-profit business would.

It's not like it'll happen anyway. We'll just keep tinkering with the edges of the status quo because that's all they can get away with. Unfortunately it costs proportionally more to make small changes and the cycle of governments and 'progression' will just go round and round, costing us every time.

We're so fncked I prefer a much more radical approach, be it slashed spending, wholesale privatisation, a flat tax. Something, anything. It almost doesn't matter what it is, I want leaders with the balls to say it how it is and go through with proper change. For all the rhetoric over the last 15 years about change there's been precious little of it, and of that most was pretty futile and has cost us a fortune into the bargain.

I'm not holding my breath.

 

[Rumble]

Going by your example.... Do you really think if and when things improve the government will turn round to me and say 'thanks for helping us out of a hole. We're minted again now so here's a bumper pay rise and we'd like to reduce your pension contributions'? No, no they won't. I don't expect to profit when the world's a happy place but I also don't accept being shafted because of the actions of others

Head. Sand. Bury away.

I hope you get your way, and your pension, really. Fill your boots. I'll remind you in a year or so when swathes of public sector workers are being made redundant and basic services cut even further that I told you cuts had to happen somewhere. That's what happens when there's a limited pot of money and it doesn't cover everything. But hey, so long as you don't have to contribute a bit more to your own future.

As for who i'm expecting to pay for my state pension? Er, as a tax and ni payer i'm paying for it aren't i?!