P7 sizing query

[Simbob7]

Can any of you P7 owners advise me on frame sizing?

I sat on a new 17" last week but felt a little big - I am 5' 5" with 29" inside leg. Shop advised a 15". Then I discovered the frames don’t now have V brake lugs and I would prefer an old bike again anyway. I am currently running an old aluminium Giant 16" with DH RST forks but short TT at 20.5” which makes it a little cramped so have my seat set right back (and mid 80s Specialized Streetstomper before that . I have some bits I can reuse plus Marzochi MX Comp (but 1 1/8") and some nice FIR wheels from Merlin Cycles (but no disc mounts).

I am new to the site but haven't found any 15" P7 frames/bikes from the 90s (after lots of trawling - I couldn’t get the search query to pick out ‘15”’ . So I downloaded a 1995 Orange catalogue yesterday and discovered that the 17" of that era seems nearer to a 15" now!

.............2007 15”...........1995 15”...........1995 17”
Head ….69° ……………70.5° ……………70.5°
Seat ….73° ……………73° …….………73°
TT ......544 ……..……524 …..………544
C/stay .430 …………420 ……..……420
W/base 1069 ……….1024 ………...1039
Rider ..….? …......5’3” – 5’7” ……..5’6” – 5’9”

There also seems some confusion in places on how Orange frames are measured.

So did Orange change how they measured frames or are the older ones smaller for the same nominal size? If anyone can throw some light on this I would much appreciate it. Then I can crack on and buy a 90s frame or bike, either 17” or seek out an elusive 15” if that is what I need.

I should add that I mainly use my bike to cycle 4 miles to work usually with a backpack so prefer a more upright posture.

Oh and it would also be helpful to know what year Orange went to 1 1/8" steerer and when the removed V break lugs.

Thanks
Simon

p.s. my other option looks like a 16” Kona Cindercone or similar

 

[Anthony]

I don't know whether the apparent increase in top tube length is real - it could be just a different way of measuring. My 1998 E4 size 17 measures 544mm c-c along the tube, but that isn't the conventional way of measuring top tubes. Conventionally the measurement is taken horizontally from the centre of the top of the head tube back to the centre of the seat post. That measure could easily be 20mm more and maybe they measure conventionally now and if so that may account for the difference between 524mm and 544 mm.

That was quite a long way of saying 'I don't know.'

If that Giant has a 520mm top tube combined with an almost zero stem, then it's certainly very small indeed and a size 17 P7 is going to feel a lot bigger. That doesn't necessarily mean too big though - you won't find that out in a shop, you need to get used to it. I think Orange's guide is correct - if you're 5-5, size 15 would be ideal and size 17 would be a fraction too big but ok. There are many more 17s than 15s out there, especially as most people find Oranges 'quite small for their size'.

Comparing to a size 16 Cinder Cone, that has a 538mm top tube measured c-c along the tube, it has a 9cm head tube (size 17 Orange = 10cm) and 13" c-c seat tube (size 17 Orange 15").

I'm pretty sure Orange went to 1 1/8 head tubes in 1998. It must be quite recent that they they stopped providing V-mounts, maybe 2005 or so? If you don't need disc mounts, frames without them are much cheaper. My E4 cost £63 posted recently, but this 2003 or 4 E8 is very similar aside from having disc mounts and it made £170 posted (it's a size 17 incidentally, the listing is wrong).
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll? ... K:MEWAX:IT

 

[Average Mark]

I have an 07 P7 and the top tube length feels quite long, but this allows you to run a short stem to sort the steering with 140mm forks. Due to the forks the front end is high, so with a 15" you are going to be sat up straight. Great bikes imo - i sold my Ti Van Nicholas cause i liked riding my P7 to much

 

[Simbob7]

P7 sizing

Hi Chaps, thanks for your thoughts.
My measurements from the catalogues were for the centre to centre top tube, so that isn’t the explanation for the older 17” being apparently smaller than the current model and closer to the current 15”. (btw your 544 measurement Anthony is spot on compared to the 1995 catalogue). I note the latest catalogue gives the horizontal ‘effective’ TT as well (where 544 becomes 560mm on a current 15”).
I can think of only two reasons for the difference:
1. Orange have made frames bigger for their nominal size
2. Orange have changed how the define the size (seat tube length)

With regard to 2. is the reason the way the seat tube is measured? Going with Anthony’s measurements, if an ‘old’ 1998 17” model has a 15” centre to centre seat tube (but defined by Orange as 17” centre to top) but by 2009 Orange changed to defining frame size as centre to centre, then the equivalent frame becomes a 15”. This would explain the difference (if you can follow my logic).

Re the Cindercone, the 1997 catalogue I have downloaded gives almost identical measurements for a 16” to a 1995 P7. It gives an effective TT of 559 which I estimate would have a sloping measurement of around 545mm (compared to Anthony’s 538mm). Next size is 18” which I am guessing would definitely be too big for me. The Hot, Explosif, Kilauea and Lava Dome all exactly the same size in 1997.

 

[Anthony]

The relationship between along the tube and 'effective' measurements varies with the slope of the top tube. Kona have kept the same measurements since 1994. Please accept my assurance that the frames shown below have c-c top tubes of 538mm, 550mm and 562mm respectively. A size 19 is 575mm. I can't remember what the 'effective' equivalents are supposed to be, but 'effective' is fairly meaningless anyway, because it varies with what length fork you put on the frame.

If Orange have indeed lengthened their top tubes, that will be in line with current design trends for longer forks, slacker head angles, compensatory shorter stems and compensatory longer top tubes.

 

[Simbob7]

Thanks for the pics Anthony. Looks like its definately a 16" frame then if I get a Kona as opposed to a P7. I presume it will still be a 1" steerer tube ... which would mean I need another set of forks (or buy a full build).

 

[Anthony]

All Konas from about 93 had 1 1/8, as did many/most makes. Orange were late hold-outs for the 1" steerer.

This is a nice-looking bike IMO. And quite rare to see one in size 17.
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll? ... K:MEWAX:IT

 

[steelhardtailer]

My wife rides a 2005 P7 15” with V brakes and disc mounts if you need any actual sizes pm me