It's kicking off in London...

[sgw]

I believe that if we produced more people who knew how to invent, design and manufacture, our universities wouldn't be churning out "transferrable skilled" employees for the service sector -- it would be mass-producing enterprising and innovative employers for the manufacturing sector.

New companies would appear that could sell energy production technology, energy efficiency technology, computer technology, biotechnology and alternative-fuel automotive technology to the rest of the world. We would export our products and make money again! We would employ more people and reduce the dole queues.....

Many of the cities in the uk, (well the mid and north of the UK anyway) only exist because of the demands for labour during the industrial revolution. The mines, mills and factories that once employed millions will not be seen again, at least in the foreseeable future.

Why would the new companies you hope for even consider manufacturing in the UK. Are you suggesting we reduce wages and living conditions sufficiently to be competitive with producers in the undeveloped world? Or are you advocating some sort of self sufficient isolationism?

The reason that we don't have any manufacturing industry is not just an unfortunate accident. Nor is it because we failed to train enough inventors, designers and manufacturers. It is a result of global capitalism maximising profit with absolutely no concern for the welfare of any particular community or country.

How would you address this problem because without doing so your ideas may sound idyllic but are total fantasy?

 

[dbmtb]

virtually non-existant class system.

Wake up and smell the roses FFS.

You are supposed to put smileys to indicate when you are joking and we are meant to laugh.

Non-existant(sic) class system my arse. Only roses are the ones tinting your specs.

 

[silverclaws]

I believe that if we produced more people who knew how to invent, design and manufacture, our universities wouldn't be churning out "transferrable skilled" employees for the service sector -- it would be mass-producing enterprising and innovative employers for the manufacturing sector.

New companies would appear that could sell energy production technology, energy efficiency technology, computer technology, biotechnology and alternative-fuel automotive technology to the rest of the world. We would export our products and make money again! We would employ more people and reduce the dole queues.....

Many of the cities in the uk, (well the mid and north of the UK anyway) only exist because of the demands for labour during the industrial revolution. The mines, mills and factories that once employed millions will not be seen again, at least in the foreseeable future.

Why would the new companies you hope for even consider manufacturing in the UK. Are you suggesting we reduce wages and living conditions sufficiently to be competitive with producers in the undeveloped world? Or are you advocating some sort of self sufficient isolationism?

The reason that we don't have any manufacturing industry is not just an unfortunate accident. Nor is it because we failed to train enough inventors, designers and manufacturers. It is a result of global capitalism maximising profit with absolutely no concern for the welfare of any particular community or country.

How would you address this problem because without doing so your ideas may sound idyllic but are total fantasy?

The aptly named industrial coffin

 

[JohnH]

"fun" subjects like media studies, comparative religion, French literature, drama and sociology -- subjects that involved warm, fluffy concepts like 'critical analysis' and 'reasoned argument' but didn't involve difficult things like numbers, symbols, formulae or learning technical skills.

How condescending? How much time have you spent on any of these courses to have the faintest idea of what you are talking about?

Yes, I'm being condescending. It's one of the perks that I earned as an engineering student when I was attending 31 hours of lectures per week while my drama-student flat-mates had a timetable that contained just 8 hours of attendance per week.

And just for the record, I studied sociology in night class at A-level; I can attest that it did not contain any numbers, symbols or formulae. But it did contain a whole load of pointless bullshit.

From a scientist, I'd expect a scientific approach rather than generalisation and postulation.

From a guy who writes two line posts, I think you're expecting too much...

 

[JohnH]

Odd you pull this out of the bag with no reference to production costs.

Denmark has the knowledge to create things that the rest of the world wants to buy. I cite for example the recent cuts at Vestas Wind Generator company - production is being moved to the far east. So does France and the UK - look where production is going.

What we don't have, are cheap labourforces. But cheap labourforces require a lower standard of living. Are you prepared to give up yours to put Britain back on its feet?

There are two halves to engineering -- design and production. There is money in design because intellectual property rights allow a company to protect their inventions.

But there is also money in brand new production methods; British Aerospace have a method for joining two pieces of steel together that defies explanation, but the best I can do is to say that a machine tool "blends" the two pieces of steel together without heating them to their melting point. The process has been shown on TV but the details are highly secret because no-one else in the world knows how to do it. So it is possible to keep very high-tech production processes in this country whilst paying factory employees a decent wage. The secret is to stay ahead of everybody else.

This is all about globalisation, not the education system. It's the great levelling that was bound to come at some point.

I'm sorry dbmtb, if you're proposing that a country's ability to compete in a global market place has nothing to do with the education level of its citizens, then we're going to have to disagree...

 

[JohnH]

Do you really think a twenty-year-old two years into a French literature degree should put down her Petit Robert and turn to tensor calculus and FEA?

Ah, come on Jim.... You can do better than that!!!

So I'm arguing that an increase in the number of maths, science and engineering graduates will improve the country's chances of making money and repairing our economic situation.

In the medium term, it might. But how many undergraduates do you think you might need to pump through mathematics, physics and engineering courses (at their own cost) to make a difference, particularly when the jobs are elsewhere?

The Institute of Physics report I posted previously specifically identifies rising levels of student debt as a factor influencing the exodus of brighter students from postgraduate study when far better salaries are available in other sectors of the economy (notably in finance). In the light of that report, it makes no sense at all to burden students with rising levels of debt in the hope of encouraging them to enter a sector that has fewer and fewer opportunities.

I completely appreciate your argument here, but I still that it's a problem that has to be solved, not walked away from.

Whenever a service transaction has an international counterparty, a service is exported. That can include banking, finance, insurance...

Are we still relying on those? :shock:

...advertising, translating...

True, but those projects tend to be "one-offs" and are very labour intensive

...publishing, entertainment...

I must concede that you're absolutely right here. These can be mass produced and easily sold all over the world for a premium price.

...but also education and tourism (when an international client is imported). The education sector is an important source of overseas funds.

Yes, I suppose that with education and tourism, overseas visitors are bringing their foreign currency with them to pay into the service sector. But for a country like Germany for example, I'm just not sure how well the income from tourism and education compares with the income generated by Bosch, Volkswagen, Siemens, BMW, Braun or Mercedes.

It would be nice to have a more balanced economy, but we don't have the advantages of many of our competitors. We have few natural resources, a very high cost of living, and a sixty-year history of failure to invest.

All true, Jim. We also have a £4.8 trillion national debt and a £155 billion fiscal deficit (which is only reduced by about half by George Osborne's £84 billion savings). Last year, more money was given out in welfare payments than was taken in income tax. Things aren't looking good, and a little bit of tweaking here and there isn't going to be enough. We need a decisive and drastic plan to turn things around.

How many employers do you know from among your graduating class?

Two guys from my college class started an engineering company in Chichester that employs 9.

I haven't kept in touch with many from my graduating class, but before the course had finished, one of the guys was selling coloured plastic overlays for Technics turntables that he was selling to DJs all over the world. Some people have balls of steel... :roll:

I think that maybe some people partaking in this thread have got 'the wrong end of the stick' when reading my posts. I'm not out to rubbish arts or humanities students. I just remember Robert Pirsig's line from Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance: "If you want to change the world, the best place to start is with this head, this heart and these hands and work outward from there". This philosophy guided me towards an engineering education and it seems to me to be a much more practical and fruitful strategy than rioting, arson or even protest marching.

Jim, I've really enjoyed debating with you, but I have to put some hours into a small web venture that I'm trying to start, and that means that I can't devote so much time to composing lengthy posts on the RB forums. If I don't respond in this thread, I hope you'll understand.

 

[JohnH]

The reason that we don't have any manufacturing industry is not just an unfortunate accident. Nor is it because we failed to train enough inventors, designers and manufacturers. It is a result of global capitalism maximising profit with absolutely no concern for the welfare of any particular community or country.

Sgw, I read your post and absorbed what you said, but somehow, I don't think that you and I are ever going to see eye-to-eye on this one!

 

[dbmtb]

But there is also money in brand new production methods; British Aerospace have a method for joining two pieces of steel together that defies explanation,

Fine - until demand becomes so great that British Aerospace realises it can increase profits by outsourcing.

Which brings us back to... (Again - making my point in 2 lines. Brevity is the essence of wit (Oscar Wilde))

 

[dbmtb]

Maybe your class was just perceived to need more help to get where it was going.... (JUST KIDDING)

Joking aside, I see where you are coming from on this, but fail to comprehend your apparent need to belittle subjects other than the one you yourself chose, thereby making yourself appear to be a pompous ass when you otherwise make some pertinent, well-written points.

If you'd spent more time concentrating on your namby-pamby-non-scientific-a-level-about-people-not-metal, you would have realised that this was a very ineffective way of putting your point across.

 

[sgw]

The reason that we don't have any manufacturing industry is not just an unfortunate accident. Nor is it because we failed to train enough inventors, designers and manufacturers. It is a result of global capitalism maximising profit with absolutely no concern for the welfare of any particular community or country.

Sgw, I read your post and absorbed what you said, but somehow, I don't think that you and I are ever going to see eye-to-eye on this one!

No problem John. I suspect it mightn't be the last time either. I am sure we are both big enough to cope with some one on the net disagreeing with us.

The crucial question of how we could possibly expect to recreate our long gone manufacturing base under present day international economics must remain unanswered for now.