It's been 12 years now... (FSR content)
- Thread starter Thias
- Start date
Thias
Klein Fan
So you like pics like this? :mrgreen:
I should do a few of these so I could post them in "show off you man cave"-threads. But it would be very necessary to tidy up...
But to continue my story on those fsr frames, next would be to see what we have.
1st there is a nice red main frame.
Its condition is much better than I thought judging form the pics I saw in the add. Most important to me - there are no cracks or dents.
There is some paint missing due to stone impact in combination with the poor paint quality
and some rust on the insides. The threads are fine. I was able to screw the bb in and out using my hands only. Phew!
I have a few bottles of "Fluid Film" that I will use inside those tubes. It will stop the rust for sure.
2nd is the rear dampening. Luckily the was one Cane Creek AD-10 Dampener included with the frames. It looks completely unused.
But on the down side there were no bushings included to hold it on the frame. I was able to mount it using the original bushings from my Alps. But I will have to machine custom ones. The eyelets of the CaneCreek are a but more narrow than the Alps'
3rd is the fsx fork. While looking good from the outside (with the cable stop chopped off), the insides were not ok:
I think someone tried to convert the fork to the more modern Hydracoil system, RS was using in his ~99 Judy forks. But the attempt failed, because the lower tubes needed to be flooded with oil but had no sealing to contain it. No oil, no dampening. :roll:
I put the forks problem aside and started on the frame. I was so curious what it all would look like that I did a quick test:
The decision was made to mainly use m900 as obviously I have a few parts laying around. And I think it will fit the frame nicely. Not sure about the brakes thou.
Of course I'll try to repair the fork.
Plan A is to finish what the first owner started and get the hydracoil in working condition. This will be a rider and I like the functionality of the Hydracoil better than the older dampening cartridge system. And I have working a Hydracoil Judys for parts.
Plan B would be to use the parts of a Judy DH (that I also have on stash). Problem here: My plastic version cartridge is not functioning well. I would have to search for a 80mm aluminium version (needle in a hay stack I think).
I will not try to paint the frame at this time. Bad bad memories... :facepalm:
I should do a few of these so I could post them in "show off you man cave"-threads. But it would be very necessary to tidy up...
But to continue my story on those fsr frames, next would be to see what we have.
1st there is a nice red main frame.
Its condition is much better than I thought judging form the pics I saw in the add. Most important to me - there are no cracks or dents.
There is some paint missing due to stone impact in combination with the poor paint quality
and some rust on the insides. The threads are fine. I was able to screw the bb in and out using my hands only. Phew!
I have a few bottles of "Fluid Film" that I will use inside those tubes. It will stop the rust for sure.
2nd is the rear dampening. Luckily the was one Cane Creek AD-10 Dampener included with the frames. It looks completely unused.
But on the down side there were no bushings included to hold it on the frame. I was able to mount it using the original bushings from my Alps. But I will have to machine custom ones. The eyelets of the CaneCreek are a but more narrow than the Alps'
3rd is the fsx fork. While looking good from the outside (with the cable stop chopped off), the insides were not ok:
I think someone tried to convert the fork to the more modern Hydracoil system, RS was using in his ~99 Judy forks. But the attempt failed, because the lower tubes needed to be flooded with oil but had no sealing to contain it. No oil, no dampening. :roll:
I put the forks problem aside and started on the frame. I was so curious what it all would look like that I did a quick test:
The decision was made to mainly use m900 as obviously I have a few parts laying around. And I think it will fit the frame nicely. Not sure about the brakes thou.
Of course I'll try to repair the fork.
Plan A is to finish what the first owner started and get the hydracoil in working condition. This will be a rider and I like the functionality of the Hydracoil better than the older dampening cartridge system. And I have working a Hydracoil Judys for parts.
Plan B would be to use the parts of a Judy DH (that I also have on stash). Problem here: My plastic version cartridge is not functioning well. I would have to search for a 80mm aluminium version (needle in a hay stack I think).
I will not try to paint the frame at this time. Bad bad memories... :facepalm:
Thias
Klein Fan
Touching up the paint proved itself quite time consuming. There are hundreds of chips. Here you can see the seattube. I am half way done. Lower tube is looking very similar.
The bb-housing
And while the paint had to dry, I started with the forks rebuild.
I took apart my donor fork, a Judy 100mm XC Hydracoil long travel.
As you can see it is nearly identical to the parts I found inside my FSX. But there are a few slight differences.
I also took apart one of my early model Judys, to show the differences and point out the problems that have to be overcome before one can do the Hydracoil conversion.
First Problem: The lower allen bolts have a different size. M6 for the old elastomere-Judys, M8 for the Hydracoil version. Here you can see the different bore diameters:
This is the dempaning rods, old M6 to the left, newer M8 in the middle and to the right. Gladly the diameter of both rods (looking at the lower end only) is the same. So the new rods will fit inside the FSX dip tubes.
Also note that allen key peeking into the picture. That is actually part of the rebound adjusting mechanism. It is molded into a little cap that fits over the allen bolt you can see right above it. (see the 3rd pic above) That particular allen bolt has that o-ring to hold and seal the cap and a bore so the allen key fits through. Turning the cap would alter the rebound setting.
My solution for the bigger bolts is this:
M8 to M6 tread inserts.
They go into the hydracoil damper rods, together with an additional o-ring to seal the lowers of the fork, like so:
Note that black stopper thingy on the pic. It came with he fsx and is used so the new dampener assembly wont slide past the old version stanchion ends. Those are quite different to the newer versions:
I think those parts come from some early version hydracoil, but I am not sure.
This is how it looks like before reassembly:
Note that the "rope" of the o-ring (is that the right term?) is too thick. It should not sick out sideways. Because it will get sheered a bit if it is like that. I did not want to order those, so it'll have to do.
A few unassorted tips and thoughts:
- To set the rebound in "my" version it will be necessary to undo the allen bolt on the dampener side and use a separate tool. There is some risk of oil leaking out. But as long as you dont push the tool in too hard, it shouldnt be a problem. The Springs would press the dampening rod downwards and the seal should stay in place even with the allen bolt out.
I could not think of anything around that problem. Because there is not enough "flesh" on the M6 bolt to bore a hole that would fit the allen key through. And there wouldn't be enough space for the cap in the dropout anyhow.
- Those main seals between the stanchion tubes and the dip tubes were not thought to hold that much oil inside. They will be leaking like mad. I have to order newer seals. I have one SID-seal left over from another Judy hydracoil repair, I'll try that for a start.
- Those plastic spacers can be mounted either on the main springs Ends for more or stacked onto the dampener rod for less travel. 2 Spacers on the rod eqals around 70mm travel in my case.
The resulting build height with 2 spacers "on the lower" compared to a 80mm Judy DH
The hydracoil Judys have a dampener on one side an a "fake" dampener on the other. On the dampener side, there is this kind of plastic bushing (see next pic). But on the fake side it is missing. Don't be confused. There really isn't one.
And one other thing is: Those bushings come with slightly different diameters. I have a feeling that they slightly changed the inside diameter of the stanchions over the years. Using the newer seal I was not able to fit the dampener assembly into the old version stanchions.
Another thing I had to cope with, and the biggest bummer of last week:
*fill in a few hefty german curses of your own taste that would make the old lady that was passing my house turn pale and change to the other side of the street*
I really did not think about that. On one side, the bonded joint between the dropout and the carbon fiber tube is leaking oil :facepalm:
To be continued... :roll:
The bb-housing
And while the paint had to dry, I started with the forks rebuild.
I took apart my donor fork, a Judy 100mm XC Hydracoil long travel.
As you can see it is nearly identical to the parts I found inside my FSX. But there are a few slight differences.
I also took apart one of my early model Judys, to show the differences and point out the problems that have to be overcome before one can do the Hydracoil conversion.
First Problem: The lower allen bolts have a different size. M6 for the old elastomere-Judys, M8 for the Hydracoil version. Here you can see the different bore diameters:
This is the dempaning rods, old M6 to the left, newer M8 in the middle and to the right. Gladly the diameter of both rods (looking at the lower end only) is the same. So the new rods will fit inside the FSX dip tubes.
Also note that allen key peeking into the picture. That is actually part of the rebound adjusting mechanism. It is molded into a little cap that fits over the allen bolt you can see right above it. (see the 3rd pic above) That particular allen bolt has that o-ring to hold and seal the cap and a bore so the allen key fits through. Turning the cap would alter the rebound setting.
My solution for the bigger bolts is this:
M8 to M6 tread inserts.
They go into the hydracoil damper rods, together with an additional o-ring to seal the lowers of the fork, like so:
Note that black stopper thingy on the pic. It came with he fsx and is used so the new dampener assembly wont slide past the old version stanchion ends. Those are quite different to the newer versions:
I think those parts come from some early version hydracoil, but I am not sure.
This is how it looks like before reassembly:
Note that the "rope" of the o-ring (is that the right term?) is too thick. It should not sick out sideways. Because it will get sheered a bit if it is like that. I did not want to order those, so it'll have to do.
A few unassorted tips and thoughts:
- To set the rebound in "my" version it will be necessary to undo the allen bolt on the dampener side and use a separate tool. There is some risk of oil leaking out. But as long as you dont push the tool in too hard, it shouldnt be a problem. The Springs would press the dampening rod downwards and the seal should stay in place even with the allen bolt out.
I could not think of anything around that problem. Because there is not enough "flesh" on the M6 bolt to bore a hole that would fit the allen key through. And there wouldn't be enough space for the cap in the dropout anyhow.
- Those main seals between the stanchion tubes and the dip tubes were not thought to hold that much oil inside. They will be leaking like mad. I have to order newer seals. I have one SID-seal left over from another Judy hydracoil repair, I'll try that for a start.
- Those plastic spacers can be mounted either on the main springs Ends for more or stacked onto the dampener rod for less travel. 2 Spacers on the rod eqals around 70mm travel in my case.
The resulting build height with 2 spacers "on the lower" compared to a 80mm Judy DH
The hydracoil Judys have a dampener on one side an a "fake" dampener on the other. On the dampener side, there is this kind of plastic bushing (see next pic). But on the fake side it is missing. Don't be confused. There really isn't one.
And one other thing is: Those bushings come with slightly different diameters. I have a feeling that they slightly changed the inside diameter of the stanchions over the years. Using the newer seal I was not able to fit the dampener assembly into the old version stanchions.
Another thing I had to cope with, and the biggest bummer of last week:
*fill in a few hefty german curses of your own taste that would make the old lady that was passing my house turn pale and change to the other side of the street*
I really did not think about that. On one side, the bonded joint between the dropout and the carbon fiber tube is leaking oil :facepalm:
To be continued... :roll:
Thias
Klein Fan
I had a few discussions about how to stop the leaking. There were several ideas. Separate the dropout and glue it in from scratch. Fill in epoxy, apply pressure to press it through the leaking, then flush out the access from the inside and hope there is nothing left in the wrong places. But for me the third idea seemed to be best fitting my abilities. Vacuum the inside and apply a few drops of glue to the seam on the outside.
So out comes the vacuum pump. :twisted:
Luckily the socket on the pump fits the tubes upper seal exactly. So I only had to cover the little hole that the allen bolt goes through.
Before that, I filled the tube with solvent to clean out all the oil. I also put pressure on so the solvent would flow through the leak and flush out the oil from there. I then taped off the outers, applied some very liquid glue to the seam and turned on the vacuum pump. I could see the glue disappearing into the seam very slowly. I put another drop on top, waited for it to disappear into the leak, then stopped the pump and waited for the glue to harden.
Yesterday I then reassembled the fork, filled in the oil and held my breath. No more leaking at the dropout
BUT the upper seals are leaking, too :facepalm:
I have a leftover seal from a hydracoil Judys (those are the same for the SIDs) that I tried to use, but the outer diameter is larger:
I measured the old wiper seal, should be 27.8mm inner, 35mm outer. So I placed an order for a few 28x35x5mm BASL rotary seals. Hopefully they will work.
The leaking on those upper tubes isn't too bad thou. So I decided to go on with the build and throw together a "rolling chassis". I really want to get out and give it a spin.
I think I might make it this afternoon. Mostly everything is mounted. The fork, saddle, M900 drivetrain, Syncros BB, a few white cable outers :facepalm:
I kind of ran out of brake parts. 5 different sets of cantis but I am missing some brake cables, outers and decent straddle thingys. (I hate running out of parts! :evil: )
Oh and there is the chopped of hanger up front, of course. I had to use a Magura for now. (Those are real problem solvers...)
So out comes the vacuum pump. :twisted:
Luckily the socket on the pump fits the tubes upper seal exactly. So I only had to cover the little hole that the allen bolt goes through.
Before that, I filled the tube with solvent to clean out all the oil. I also put pressure on so the solvent would flow through the leak and flush out the oil from there. I then taped off the outers, applied some very liquid glue to the seam and turned on the vacuum pump. I could see the glue disappearing into the seam very slowly. I put another drop on top, waited for it to disappear into the leak, then stopped the pump and waited for the glue to harden.
Yesterday I then reassembled the fork, filled in the oil and held my breath. No more leaking at the dropout
BUT the upper seals are leaking, too :facepalm:
I have a leftover seal from a hydracoil Judys (those are the same for the SIDs) that I tried to use, but the outer diameter is larger:
I measured the old wiper seal, should be 27.8mm inner, 35mm outer. So I placed an order for a few 28x35x5mm BASL rotary seals. Hopefully they will work.
The leaking on those upper tubes isn't too bad thou. So I decided to go on with the build and throw together a "rolling chassis". I really want to get out and give it a spin.
I think I might make it this afternoon. Mostly everything is mounted. The fork, saddle, M900 drivetrain, Syncros BB, a few white cable outers :facepalm:
I kind of ran out of brake parts. 5 different sets of cantis but I am missing some brake cables, outers and decent straddle thingys. (I hate running out of parts! :evil: )
Oh and there is the chopped of hanger up front, of course. I had to use a Magura for now. (Those are real problem solvers...)
dalecooper
Senior Retro Guru
Re:
Great McGyver story! Love the solutions you pulled would be helpful in the future!
Great McGyver story! Love the solutions you pulled would be helpful in the future!
Thias
Klein Fan
This is what it looks like right now. As you can see I had to make a few compromises to quickly get out. E.g. the race lines. But I really had to test a few things out.
Conclusion after 1km of "damn its too cold without hand gloves...":
- That rear end swings like cows tail! It sure needs new bearings. Gladly I have a set in the drawer. Or I'll swap it all out entirely.
- That fork looses way too much oil at one of the upper seals. Undrivable. I really hope my new seals will fit and "work".
- Those white outers were not the best of my ideas. :facepalm:
- The stem is too long for my taste :cry:
- The "dynamics" of that rear end suspension will be "interesting". I put 100psi on the dampener which seems to be not enough for my weight. That resulted in 50% sag. And -that's the interesting part - I was able to "top out" the suspension just by pedalling hard.
Other than that, the rear felt really plush. Close to no friction, very smooth. I think like it.
Just because I like the looks of that frame so much, one more pic:
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