Is Retro faster?

[Splatter Paint]

Re:

Oh, this has resurfaced has it? :facepalm:

I put this to the test recently, I rode a 1990 Cinder Cone in a 6 hour enduro event. The bike rides beautifully but can't compete in the technical sections and after 5 hours I had blisters on my palms despite foam grips. In short, no, not faster. For comparison last season I was in the top 5% of most of the enduro events I entered on my modern bike so I do have a good benchmark to compare!

SP

 

[Spanky22b]

120mm is sooooooo 2005.

I always thought XC was anything upto 120mm,after that the market went 140-160 mm enduro,160-180 free ride,then downhill was 200mm plus. But i don't think the marketing people would segregate a mountain bike like that,would they :shock:

 

[Spanky22b]

Regarding the brakes conundrum,i'd like to see a well set up pair of cantis out perform a well set up pair of Shimano Saint brakes. I'd like to see a comparison with them down make or brake at Inners for instance,that'd be fun

Saint is a DH specific groupset, so it'd be a bit of a daft comparison as DH specific cantis are pretty thin on the ground. After all, you wouldn't compare a Mondeo to a Defender off road and down hill, would you. But compare a 1990s Mondeo to a 2014 Insignia, and the difference ain't so great. Sure ones smoother, not polished, but fundamentally it doesn't do anything the oldest car.can't. Same with my canti bikes compared wit my SLX equipped Trance X. Sure, the Trance is less prone to environmental issues, but the bottom line is.I'm a 255lb lump of blubber and jelly and the canti equipped bikes in my fleet get me to work, across the trails, tow a child trailer and go touring just as readily as the Giant. 20 years of progress haven't bestowed magic powers or hover ability, just brakes.

Hands up my fault,i should've said xtr :facepalm:

 

[Spanky22b]

:shock:

 

[ultrazenith]

Regarding the brakes conundrum,i'd like to see a well set up pair of cantis out perform a well set up pair of Shimano Saint brakes. I'd like to see a comparison with them down make or brake at Inners for instance,that'd be fun

How do you define 'outperform'? What I have gathered, is that with cantis you can just as must power (up to a point where extra power matters not, when the wheel is locked), but cantis require more finger force, and take longer/more effort to find the desired level of braking. For DH, I'd expect that to make a small but significant difference, allowing a rider to brake marginally later. For XC, which my own particular breed of retrogrouch calls the proper mountain-biking, I'd be surprised if disc brakes made a rider noticeably faster than cantis. For XC, I wouldn't be surprised if the extra weight of discs might even counterbalance the split seconds gained due to marginally later braking.

One thing I think is clear, though. In new fangled events such as DH racing or enduro events (which, if I have this right, are events where the uphills don't count??), technology makes a bigger difference.

 

[brocklanders023]

Re:

I know this is retrobike but please tell me we are not saying that any canti, how ever well set up can compare to even a bog standard set of modern discs. :facepalm: :roll: :facepalm:

I have the latest Deore discs on my modern bike, so by no means flash. Any of you who says canti's compare are welcome to come and chuck your bike and then my bike down a local hill. :facepalm:

 

[M-Power]

Re:

^^ Agree with post two above. The same modern technology is better argument is seen on countless computer, car and golf forums etc. People swear blind the new 'Playstation' driving experience eg is far better and faster than the old analogue experience eg. At the end of the day there are too many variables. In my case I'm referring to XC riding not pure downhill at 10/10ths. What happens when you catch a brake fluid cable and damage your system miles from home on a modern bike ? At least with the old technology, a bit of wheel building experience if necessary would always get you home. I have seen quite a few guys pushing their modern 29lb full sussers up hill and down Dale when they had a bad off.

As a qualified Environmental Scientist, what damage do these uber powerful disc brakes do to trails, erosion, ecosystems when everybody locks up both wheel 20+ times trying to beat their downhill Strava time ?

 

[Spanky22b]

Regarding the brakes conundrum,i'd like to see a well set up pair of cantis out perform a well set up pair of Shimano Saint brakes. I'd like to see a comparison with them down make or brake at Inners for instance,that'd be fun

How do you define 'outperform'?

How do i define outperform?. I can only explain in my own personnel point of view which is :facepalm: When i started Mtb in the 80's i used 4 finger brake levers,not good! Only my thumb held the bars,progressed to two fingered levers late 80's,now my thumb and and two fingers can grip the bar. Then a Eureka moment though for me was when they made the XT V-brake mid 90's,massive power over cantis when you took all the half moons out of the levers. But the big break through for me was you could control them with one finger,more fingers on the bars better control of the bike. The brakes progressed from then on into cable discs to what we have now,which is the slight movement of pressure with one finger to either slow you down or stop you dead. Also when magura brought out the hydro stops that changed everything as well,with them having hydraulic power but they used more or less 4 fingered levers,not good. The thing about it all was,it was the latest technology coming out and in all honesty it was 9 times out of 10 a big improvement.

 

[shogun]

Re: Re:

As someone who's never used disc brakes, how exactly are they more powerful? Off-road I can lock my wheels with cantis, and I have enough modulation in between zero braking and a locked wheel. Aside from the obviously better wet weather performance, what can discs do that cantis can't?

More power for less hand effort, but greater retardation ability in general. Most now modulate equally as well or better than a rim brake. Brake later, brake less, less effort. Big leaps in suspension and tyres have meant such an increase in grip that a modern brake that can exceed modern chassis and tyre performance is necessarily imparting greater braking force in the process.

Reality is on a modern bike with a good set of disc brakes when everything comes together you can brake a lot later and a lot less than even on impeccably well set up vintage bikes. I think all other things being equal e.g. trail surface and tyre grip, there would be less of a difference but it would still be tangible, mechanical grip is a big part of the equation as retardation force all goes out the window when it overwhelms traction.


I like old bikes because they're not new bikes. I like new bikes because they are new bikes. The sad reality is if you try to cover terrain with the speed and ease of a modern bike on an old one, unless the terrain is forgiving or the pace is 'vintage', you'll get out of your depth very quickly. I'd be at the age now where I've pretty well stopped progressing but that's really only been in the last couple of years, I didn't draw a line at 1996 and stop progressing my riding and equipment there.

 

[mattr]

For XC, which my own particular breed of retrogrouch calls the proper mountain-biking, I'd be surprised if disc brakes made a rider noticeably faster than cantis. For XC, I wouldn't be surprised if the extra weight of discs might even counterbalance the split seconds gained due to marginally later braking.

So, what sort of XC is it that you do? Bimblecore?

The benefit in discs is NOT the ultimate power, its the repeatability, everytime you hit the levers, the caliper does the same thing, rain and mud makes so little difference (effectively none at all) that you only have to worry about traction, which as pointed out up there ^^^^^ somewhere, is noticeably better today than 15 years ago. Chances of buckling a disc enough to make a difference to the repeatability is pretty low. With rim brakes, you have rain, mud (fairly often), buckling (once or twice a race season?), wearing out of the pads, i have on occasion gone through a set of canti or v-brake pads in a single race before. Braking performance changes with pad wear, enough to be worrying. Bedded in disc pads work the same, until they wear out (Which takes far far longer than rubber/plastic pads). Unless you glaze or cook them........

TBH, the modulation on the latest and greatest disc brakes is right up there with the best cantis, if not better. So in XC terms, you are likely to do less damage, as you can pile on the braking loads without locking up. (On hardpack anyway, grassland will be a different matter altogether!)

I'd be very surprised if the weight difference is even noticeable anymore, now that frames/forks/wheels have had all v-brake/canti compatibility designed out. Skinny stays, no inserts in the forks, no hangers, no need for a braking surface on the rim.

One telling thing is that until about 5 years ago a couple of the older, front running WC XC riders were still using V-Brakes, now the courses are a bit more "spectator friendly" i.e. shorter and more technical, everyone is on discs.