Holdsworth Professional Track Frame?

[Midlife]

Thank you for that link torqueless, looks just like the frame Phil Bayton rode back in 1978 with the "H" on the stays......happy days LOL

Back to my now sorted ish ebay frame; can I thank everybody on here for sorting the mystery

I bought the "Roy Thame" from a fuzzy set of pics on evilbay but was obviously an early 70's TT frame which is smack in my era.

I pondered what it might be as it was obviously refinished with top tube guides added and then removed. I mulled over it being a Roy Thame but couldn't work out a model as by 1974-5 they went all italian with cloverleaf cutouts and the like and this was obviously before that. I thought about Holdsworth models but only coming across the Ultralite back in the day.......never knew they did a "Cronometro TT".

It's nicely built and the finish of the rear stays on the dropouts made me think of Mercian but the frame number was a real no no.

Doug Sorted it for me

Shot in seat stays underneath the allen key seat bolt

Drilled lugs but not the same as Derek Cottington..

Neat dropouts..

Forks

Frame number sideways on BB

More lug shots...Hmmm

Spike under the downtube that is usually a stop for a bar end shifter which is usually a late 60's early 70's feature

Is it a Chronometro TT ?

Shaun

 

[dwscrimshaw]

Re:

Thanks, Yes got that one. We have 418 numbers to date, with the two RT number further back here it takes it to 420. Whilst I understand the reluctance to down load the excel sheet there is nothing more to it than just a list of frames and links. No more difficult than using the forum etc. the intention is to make it available to whoever wants it.

Thanks for the link anyway, keep sending more as you come across them

 

[Old Ned]

As the great Mr C. still appears to have the bike in question (current photos in Cycling Weekly show him with it) then could he be contacted to ask him for details such as number etc.? He rode this white TT machine for several seasons and also had Holdsworth road bikes, a friend has one in his shed as a turbo 'mule'.

All this thread is fascinating stuff. It's amazing how 'recent' history can become so confusing. I salute those of you who have done so much research!

 

[CBguy]

Shaun et al,

I should say I have never seen a Cronometer in person. I have admired this less well known shop model and have studied examples that only very occassionally come up.

In my mind this frame (#69517) has to be a WF Holdsworth Chronometer TT (non Ultralite) Most likely starting life branded a Holdsworth and subsequently rebranded a Roy Thame, but remaining the same model in both brands. Perhaps six / half dozen.
It has a Shop "Holdsworth" "69 series" number (recently thought to be c.1973), Italian style Prugnat spear point drilled lugs as opposed to "welded" lug less Ultralite and stays shot in inch below seat lug and not into integrated seat bolt as Ultralite. (BB was drilled in Ultralite as opposed to not so with Shaun's model - expect that is the case?) Not certain re presence or absence of vertical dropouts - perhaps a custom request? Vertical dropouts made for faster wheel change with close clearance.

I'd be interested in seeing font of number compared to other frames of similar vintage as might help identify style of stamps assumed used by TJ Quick altho that may vary from whether built in Putney shop or his home shop?

Wouldn't it be great if Cottingham contributed to conversation!

Doug

 

[CBguy]

Here's a beautiful example of a Cronometer Ultralite (#69633). By latest reckoning would be c.1974 - same year as Kilgariff's '74 catalog in earlier post. Maybe people have already seen and is on Dave's list.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/40402003@ ... 371256210/

 

[torqueless]

Re:

OK some further ruminations on this:

Historical and anecdotal stuff drawn from the Kilgariff site:

In 1956 Reg Collard is at Holdsworthy hand-building custom frames. this is a new initiative seperate from the production line building the established 'name' models. He is building "8 frames a week".

In 1958 "custom builds move to 132 Lower Richmond Rd." "Holdsworthy Company allocated them a block of frame numbers." "Reg's output was 2 - 3 per week."

The apparent drop in 'productivity' might be down to having to do more of the preliminary work entailed in building a custom frame- work both bureaucratical and artisanal- being newly somewhat geographically removed from the main stock of tubes, parts, and personnel?

In 1964 Holdsworthy 'factory' became a seperate entity from W.F.Holdsworth 'shop'. In 1965 the shop started its own numbering system.

Tommy Quick takes over as principal 'shop' builder from Reg Collard around 1970.

Given that frame builders were human beings who presumably didn't work 52 weeks a year, we could assume that true 'shop' output might have been closer to two frames per week than three- about 100 frames per year. Assuming '69***' numbers continued from 1969 through to 1975, we would get something like:

1969: 69000-69100
1970: 69100-69200
1971: 69200-69300
1972: 69300-69400
1973: 69400-69500
1974: 69500-69600
1975: 69600-? 'New start' from 75000?

That could be a useful simplistic provisional template against which 'real' frames out there can be measured, to either improve its accuracy or discard it altogether..

@Shaun: I've not (knowingly) seen a Cronometro 'TT' in person either, but I concur with CBguy that that is what you've got there, possibly with the original customer's preferred lugset? The Cronometro 'Ultralite' in the Kilgariff scans has vertical dropouts (they are mentioned in the blurb, and conspicuous by their absence in the Cronometro 'TT' blurb)

 

[Midlife]

Here's a pic of the BB, the 69 is a bit full of paint from the respray it has had but the 517 are clear and have a very "serif" look about them.

I thought it was a nice frame but not "Holdsworth Cronometro" nice. Might be my big chance to have a bike in holdsworth orange / kingfisher livery

Shaun

 

[Midlife]

Just thinking;. The Reynolds decal has a Ti on it which I think only appeared in 1977 so the respray must have been after 1977.

Shaun

 

[CBguy]

Re:

Torqueless.

Good starting point re "69" shop series. Two adjustments I'd make.

Frame 69559 is a Xmas gift in 1973. If we take this as gospel than according to your suggestion it would be a 1974 frame. This is possible only if frame was ordered at Xmas but not received until early 1974. I'm trying to contact sced re these details and others but he's been off line for a few months.

Also we know the shop frames were labelled as Roy Thames in 1975, question is when. Might be reasonable to leave all "69' frames as prior to 1975 until we get a more definitive number.

Don't think this would change the numbers significantly and must remember the shop output likely varied from year to year. For instance the actual year of 1969 was busy one. It was first year for larger HC team and Collard would've been quite busy. If as it seems the last frame I have seen in his assumed typical vertically stacked numbering system is 69226. Date he retired in "70" is unclear.

Dave likely will and should put his engineering numerical analysis skills to work and fine tune the 69 numbers prediction based on present weight of evidence.

Doug

 

[CBguy]

Shaun,

Good observation re Reynold's decal! Altho only a decal, that is more evidence that frame has indeed been repainted.

Position of serial on BB is similar to other period examples but on first glance font looks different than other examples. Significance of different fonts is proving difficult to sort out. Need more study & pics of numbers.

Doug