Holdsworth Professional Track Frame?

[Wileyone]

Dave,

Yes, I have been looking at the style of stamping of the Shop frames. It appears for "69" frames until at least #69226 they all have a unique style of large numbers stacked vertically on top of one another across the bottom bracket. I have to suspect this is Reg Collard's unique style. All these bikes fit the bill for frames he would have built as they are all Pros other than #69226 which is an obvious custom tourer he likely built as well.

Your 69441 and as you point out the next one with a photo of numbers (69573) have a different style of stamping i.e. along edge of BB. Collard is said to have retired in 1970 and so I suspect this is further evidence that these particular numbered frames were built after Collard left i.e. later than 1969.

I have sent messages some time back to some of the owners of these other "69" frames requesting pics of BB numbers for further evidence.

Time will tell. We need more frames with good BB photo of numbers and good history (as #69559) to clarify.

Doug

The next one on the list (69573) is interesting too, track frame, Campag dropouts, but Mistral style Prugnat I head lugs. this also has the more typical 69 WO stay and integral bolt. Square fork crown on this one.

Interestingly it has the same concave DO attachment and the stamping on the BB is the same, particular the 69. Also Riveted head badge and claims to be original paint. I guess this just goes to confirm the wide variation on shop builds based on customer requirements.[/quote][/quote]


My 67 has the same style of stamping.
free upload

 

[dwscrimshaw]

7314 'Looks' to be a Super Mistral Fastback, 75128 is a Roy Thame bike same as the other 75 number 75480. I have included these here as they look like shop numbers and I have seen latter RT bikes with totally different numbers. There is a comment on the history site, I think, saying late shop Holdsworths carried RT badges. I think this is evidence to that effect.

With the exception of 74826 all other 71 to 73 numbers are only 4 digits long. Initially I had these in with the group of 4D 70's numbers which inc. a lot of custom built frames for other companies. These were remove as the original group seemed to have a brake between 4000+ and 7000+ leading me to believe that the 7000+ numbers were 70's shop frames.

You should have access to my cloud site to be able to take a copy of the Excel file with all these frames shown. There are pictures and links to most. I would welcome your views particularly on the 70's 4D numbers and the latter shop frames.

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... TNKZkN4TmM

 

[dwscrimshaw]

Dave,

My 67 has the same style of stamping.

Yes, I hope Doug's investigation turn up something, I think the size and positioning are key, but also the style 'text' of the stamping changes too. Different set of stamps I guess, but is this indicative of a particular builder.

Comparing the '6' in your number to mine and the other frame, I think there is a difference in the curl of the digit at the top. It could also be poor stamping too which often happens.

As always more numbers should help.

 

[Wileyone]

Dave,

My 67 has the same style of stamping.

Yes, I hope Doug's investigation turn up something, I think the size and positioning are key, but also the style 'text' of the stamping changes too. Different set of stamps I guess, but is this indicative of a particular builder.

Comparing the '6' in your number to mine and the other frame, I think there is a difference in the curl of the digit at the top. It could also be poor stamping too which often happens.

As always more numbers should help.

My Tommy Quick Road Bike from 1985 is stamped in a similar manner.
Does anyone know when Tommy started at Holdsworth? I know he took over from Reg C in 1970 but when did he start there?

 

[CBguy]

Dave,

I agree, people should do their homework and study your Excel spreadsheet of to date 400+ frames. It is a great tool in attempting to understand the serial number system used by the Holdsworthy factory and WF Holdsworth "shop".
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... TNKZkN4TmM

That being said and as you qualify, your data is not gospel but is a record of data collected to date, is a prediction tool only and as you describe should be taken in light of known owner history of individual frames, accuracy of stated serial number, individual frame details and known overall "Holdsworth" history mainly as per Kilgariff.

The numbers and interpretation of where they are taking us is a developing story. More undebatable accurate individual frame numbers with accompanying individual history is needed, particularly when looking at a narrow time frame as with "Shop" builds from '66 to '75 - a time of evolving change in relationship between Shop and Factory.

Doug

 

[CBguy]

Dave,

Some speculation, hopefully informed

Looking at present "Shop" numbers there are a few that are perhaps less accurate than others.

674706 - This Pro frame on Classic Lightweights is reported to be Bob Addy's bike. Number is an unusual 6 digit number, however it is not a reliable number. When one looks at link to Velobase, this frame's number is stated to be 674108. Corresponding with new owner, he says the numbers are significantly obscured with paint. IF number is indeed 674106/8 I would speculate this is 106/8th shop frame and built by Collard in April, 1967. Whatever, not a helpful data point.

T71216 - This bike is presented with 2 posts on Retrobike back in 2010, The frame apparently has track (thus "T" ?) dropouts with derailleur braze ons but no identifying decal or badge details to suggest it is a Holdsworth and no pics. Owner simply wonders if it is Typhoon model Holdsworth. This is not a helpful data point.

7314 On retrobike a year ago as Super Mistral. In '73 shop did not build factory models. I'd identify this frame as Shop Model, the Chronometro (not Ultralite).

74825 This is called a '73 shop model Competizone, but reference to Classic Rendezvous link labels it as 7326 which would indeed make it 1973. Error? Not a good data point.

74826 A single post on Bike Forums way back in 2005. "it it has three brazed on cable guides on the top tube. When were braze ons first used? It has been repainted so I don't know the model. I have been told that it might be a 1975 Italia". No Pics. If indeed an Italia number would suggest it is from 1974. However number is unusually high and with little corroborating evidence is not a helpful data point.

75480 Roy Thame. On Retrobike in same thread as 7314. This number is reasonable to suspect a Shop build in 1975. However it is a high number as well. I have collected at least 2 other Roy Thames (75226 and 75395) that fall in this group. It would appear that Shop indeed converted to Roy Thame brand in 1975. With high numbers perhaps "75xxx" numbered Roy Thames were carried on into at least 1976 before converting as Dave points out to a different type of numbering system. (similar to 69xxx''s) Again speculation.

So far, good 1966 to 1975 numbers (none for '70, '71, '74 & '75) are:
66118k
66133k
66140k
67117k
6776
69106
69122
6919
69202
69226
69437
69551
69559
69573
69663
7229
7272
7314
7326

With data thus far and with no numbers for '70 or '71 one can speculate that 69*** numbers were carried into '70 and '71 and taking into account "69" numbers reached a disproportionate high number of at least 663 production numbers would jive if spread out over these three years. (I speculate from style of stamping that Collard's "69" builds ceased at 69226) Because there are '72 and '73 numbers I'd speculate further that use of "69" numbers had ceased by '72. Altho, with low 72 and 73 numbers thus far there may have been an overlap in 2 systems - would seem kind of cumbersome. More speculation.

Again more accurate numbers with a good history are needed.

Doug

 

[torqueless]

Re:

Sorry.. You'd be surprised at the number of people with no aptitude for- or problematic access to- Excel spreadsheets! I'm just publicly asking questions that occur to me after surfing on the back of Dave'n'Doug's hard work- questions they've almost certainly asked themselves already.

So these 'shop' 4-digit numbers, and any 3-digit numbers that might turn up, are assumed to be 'lazy' 5-digit numbers, i.e. part of the same system? e.g. '6776' is shorthand for '67076'? And neither you, Doug, nor you, Dave, have (yet) unearthed any 5-digit 'shop' numbers with a zero in the third position?

The 4-digit 'factory' numbers are a seperate story- talking of which- here's a possible 'factory' that might've passed under your radar?: http://www.classiclightweights.co.uk/bi ... ey-rb.html

7314 On retrobike a year ago as Super Mistral. In '73 shop did not build factory models. I'd identify this frame as Shop Model, the Chronometro (not Ultralite).

I'm glad you mentioned that. That we have putative 'shop' built frames either literally labelled, or designated by convenience, or ignorance, as 'Mistral' or 'Super Mistral'.
My understanding (which might be wrong) is that those model names (along with several others) belong exclusively to 'factory' built frames, although some of those frames would have been supplied to- and then purchased from- the W.F. Holdsworth shop. This is another 'water muddy-er'- the fact that in the seventies one could presumably walk into the 'shop' and buy a 'factory' Holdsworth frame or bike from their stock without necessarily knowing, or caring, about the distinction between a 'shop' frame and a 'factory' frame. I confess that I wouldn't have known about that distinction at the time. 'Shop' 'Holdsworths' had already become 'Roy Thames' by the time I became interested anyway, and I didn't know about that at the time, either.

Anyway.. that was just to illustrate that forty years later an anecdotal: "I got it from the shop" counts for very little in terms of identifying a frame as a 'shop' build.

And (probably just paraphrasing Doug or Dave, not for the first time) until proved otherwise it looks like the 'Roy Thame' frames might have reverted to the '69***' business, except with '75' in place of '69'. Otherwise what are the odds on unearthing three Roy Thames, all with '75***' serials? If it was indeed built in 1975, '75480' would ask us to believe that Roy Thames were produced at the rate of (at least) one and a half frames per day. If there were that many, where did they all go?

 

[Midlife]

I've got a frame decaled as a Roy Thame number 69517 I always wondered what it was?

Shaun

 

[dwscrimshaw]

I think the theory that the 69 number carried on into early seventies could well be right, but we will never really know. I have not made any assessment of the validity of the claims by owners, just reporting what's out there, but Doug's observations are very valid.

If you look at all the number plotted out on the same graph my feeling is that there was the original 5D system with the two breaks that are well documented. Then during the late 60/early 70's they tried to get clever and run a number of systems to cover the shop and special builds. For all sorts of reason this fell to pieces so they started the simple 6D number system to include everything and that seemed to work as well as the old 5D one. Post 198/5 it all went wrong again as I can see no logic in the numbers we have here at all.

Mind you that Roy Thame frame of Shaun's shoots holes in any theory we might have. It looks like a shop frame number and a high one too. So Roy must have started early!

 

[torqueless]

Re:

I'm still waiting for conclusive evidence that the '69***' thing did not continue up until (and beyond) the change to 'Roy Thame' badging.

Failing that, as I suggested earlier:

Side note: After that change, presumably the shop would be obliged to re-badge any older shop 'Holdsworths' that came back to the shop for a re-finish as 'Roy Thame' too?