dwscrimshaw
Retro Guru
yes, I think it is more often seen on the CB frames, may be just that more have been documented.
Holdsworth Professional Track Frame?
- Thread starter dwscrimshaw
- Start date
dwscrimshaw
Retro Guru
Found this one too with same stays used on 1971 factor track frame, the link has the factory card too. Different crown again on this one.
https://www.pedalroom.com/bike/holdswor ... nal--30986
https://www.pedalroom.com/bike/holdswor ... nal--30986
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With rivets in head badge, I wonder if your frame was initially painted or perhaps repainted by the factory. Apparently Shop orange was lighter than factory orange and became a sore point around or soon after time your frame was built. Perhaps if you go to Mario Vaz's looking for some touch up orange, he might be able to tell you which orange your's is.
Kilgariff, round about 1970 and following couple years:
"Some HC riders kept using their shop Pro, rather than the early factory Professional, but were aware of the delicacy of the situation. The shop sent their Professionals to the factory to be enamelled, even some Reg Collard ones were redone, so the colours matched the Holdsworthy Professionals, so some team riders could keep using shop frames."
Kilgariff, round about 1970 and following couple years:
"Some HC riders kept using their shop Pro, rather than the early factory Professional, but were aware of the delicacy of the situation. The shop sent their Professionals to the factory to be enamelled, even some Reg Collard ones were redone, so the colours matched the Holdsworthy Professionals, so some team riders could keep using shop frames."
dwscrimshaw
Retro Guru
Yes color was another thing to look at, I was going through the list on Kilgariff site for the shop pro. Rivets and color was one thing I was wondering how to confirm, will have a look at this. Think the other things on the list are all either correct or there is evidence of the use of alternatives, ie stays and crown. I have just re checked the frame angles and it is easier to assess these as 73 deg parallel than trying to convince my self there were 73/74 as the factory frames. Bit difficult to get good reading, but did it with spirit level and also angle measuring app. You do end up trying to convince yourself you are getting what you are looking for.
dwscrimshaw
Retro Guru
one other item that is missing from the 69 shop Pro spec is the integrated seat stem clamp bolt. the examples I have seen so far have the full wrap over stay, but the one above and mine have the semi and Campag bolts. Maybe these go together?
torqueless
Senior Retro Guru
Re:
Doesn't the six-figure serial with an initial zero (on the factory card) make that likely to be a post-'76 frame?
dwscrimshaw
Retro Guru
Yes, You are quite correct. I seem to have quoted the date from another thread in here https://www.pedalroom.com/bike/71-holds ... onal-29775. I believe this to be the same frame with new owner, he is away currently and will confirm number when he gets back.
Clearly I have been looking at too many frames!
Anyway the conclusion I am coming to is that the road shop pro's follow the ID points on the history site, but the Pista/track frames don't. I'll keep looking but I only have my 69 frame to go on which seems to have the sloping crown seen on earlier (1966) stock track frame and the close semi WO stays with Campag Bolt. (I think the badge rivets can so easily be changed, who knows what happened here)
The factory road pros again follow the usual recognition points, but Sprint/track may well differ. There is a track frame on the history site from 1975 with full wrap over stay, then we see the one above which could actually be from 1978 with the same close WO/campag bolt combination as my 69 shop frame. At around the same time (~197
the road pro picked up the wider spaced semi-WO stays that other model had.
I have to say I have very little to go on, may be the semi WO was offered as a option on track frames? Anyway I am satisfied I have a 69 shop frame with a fork crown that had been in use around that time. Not sure why it seems to have a 'later' seat lug/stay combination, but may be this had been around as an option at that time too.
Any thoughts?
Clearly I have been looking at too many frames!
Anyway the conclusion I am coming to is that the road shop pro's follow the ID points on the history site, but the Pista/track frames don't. I'll keep looking but I only have my 69 frame to go on which seems to have the sloping crown seen on earlier (1966) stock track frame and the close semi WO stays with Campag Bolt. (I think the badge rivets can so easily be changed, who knows what happened here)
The factory road pros again follow the usual recognition points, but Sprint/track may well differ. There is a track frame on the history site from 1975 with full wrap over stay, then we see the one above which could actually be from 1978 with the same close WO/campag bolt combination as my 69 shop frame. At around the same time (~197
the road pro picked up the wider spaced semi-WO stays that other model had.I have to say I have very little to go on, may be the semi WO was offered as a option on track frames? Anyway I am satisfied I have a 69 shop frame with a fork crown that had been in use around that time. Not sure why it seems to have a 'later' seat lug/stay combination, but may be this had been around as an option at that time too.
Any thoughts?
torqueless
Senior Retro Guru
Re:
Just to mention that Raleigh/Carlton Professional track frames seem to have had the same top-eye treatment as these Holdsworths, through the first half of the seventies, before changing to the angled cap with no wraparound.
Just to mention that Raleigh/Carlton Professional track frames seem to have had the same top-eye treatment as these Holdsworths, through the first half of the seventies, before changing to the angled cap with no wraparound.
dwscrimshaw
Retro Guru
Interesting clearly a number of builders were using these std. lugs.
Any thoughts on why we have so many shop frames from 1969? Way more than the typical numbers for shop production (except 74/75 for which we only have one number each). No shop Pros found after 1969, but we do see other models and the factory Pro from 1970. The history site says they did build some after the factory pro started. Do you think is possible that these shop pros carried a 69xxx number in the 70's? interestingly #69439 looks like a track pro and 'may' have the full WO stay, difficult to tell.
Could explain why mine has the later seat lug, however I tend to think the sloping track crown places it earlier. Who knows? maybe I should just take the frame number at face value and go with 1969.
Any thoughts on why we have so many shop frames from 1969? Way more than the typical numbers for shop production (except 74/75 for which we only have one number each). No shop Pros found after 1969, but we do see other models and the factory Pro from 1970. The history site says they did build some after the factory pro started. Do you think is possible that these shop pros carried a 69xxx number in the 70's? interestingly #69439 looks like a track pro and 'may' have the full WO stay, difficult to tell.
Could explain why mine has the later seat lug, however I tend to think the sloping track crown places it earlier. Who knows? maybe I should just take the frame number at face value and go with 1969.
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