Holdsworth Frame Numbering
- Thread starter dwscrimshaw
- Start date
dwscrimshaw
Retro Guru
One other thing, the post above yours suggests there is a zero at the start of 41483 making it a 6 digit number. I guess this it true of both frames and being specials as you have said earlier would put them post 76. This would put them early to mid 80s. I'll do the adjustments latter.
Re:
Yes I'd have to agree re LFGGS Special frame, I am likely off base suggesting there is a neglected 0 - making it a 6 digit number. I've looked closer at sellers pics and it does indeed have the mid (70's) more ornate Prugnat lugs that you don't see in 80s catalog Special. Also for what it's worth frame has a metal head badge that I believe was discontinued after 76.
PS Regardless, uncertainty re date of a particular frame number is not helpful re graph. What is needed is certain numbers with definite pedigree. Even then there is time lapse to reconcile between frame build and initial sale adding to confusion. The combination of inaccurate numbers and inaccurate pedigree is at least part of reason I believeNorman Kilgariff gave up commenting.
Yes I'd have to agree re LFGGS Special frame, I am likely off base suggesting there is a neglected 0 - making it a 6 digit number. I've looked closer at sellers pics and it does indeed have the mid (70's) more ornate Prugnat lugs that you don't see in 80s catalog Special. Also for what it's worth frame has a metal head badge that I believe was discontinued after 76.
PS Regardless, uncertainty re date of a particular frame number is not helpful re graph. What is needed is certain numbers with definite pedigree. Even then there is time lapse to reconcile between frame build and initial sale adding to confusion. The combination of inaccurate numbers and inaccurate pedigree is at least part of reason I believeNorman Kilgariff gave up commenting.
torqueless
Senior Retro Guru
Re:
That's what I'm calling the 'early Specials'. Afaict that style was gone by '82 and maybe even by '78... but what do I know? it could be the chainstay-length story all over again... :facepalm:Midlife":16ed40a6 said:My tablet pics are not too good, is the seat stay cluster of the LFGSS frame like this?
With the seat stays semi recessed into the seat lug...
Shaun
Midlife
Retro Wizard
Torqueless
Yep, I agree with you there. I worked in a bike shop in the 70's and into the 80's and the special seat stays at the start were the semi recessed design but were superceded by the more plain seat stay caps by the end of the 70's.
The early Special seat stays were unusual at the time but came back again many years later. The odd Bob Jackson / Woodrup also had the semi recessed design but never seemed to be popular.
Shaun
Yep, I agree with you there. I worked in a bike shop in the 70's and into the 80's and the special seat stays at the start were the semi recessed design but were superceded by the more plain seat stay caps by the end of the 70's.
The early Special seat stays were unusual at the time but came back again many years later. The odd Bob Jackson / Woodrup also had the semi recessed design but never seemed to be popular.
Shaun
dwscrimshaw
Retro Guru
All very interesting, i'll hold off changing anything just yet till this discussion has run its course.
I've chatted with guy selling Special frame 41484. He was good to reply, and says the number is correct i.e. no 0 and from his research it is mid 70's and most likely a 1976. Again, to my knowledge metal badges were not used after 1976. See: https://www.lfgss.com/conversations/291123/
However if deduce date from 41484 number alone, frame more likely to be c. 1974 the first year that Kigariff mentions the Special. I am not entirely sure and correct me if wrong, but I think on blowing up sellers pic. it does have the flush mitred seat stays Shaun (and Kilgariff) refers to.
However if deduce date from 41484 number alone, frame more likely to be c. 1974 the first year that Kigariff mentions the Special. I am not entirely sure and correct me if wrong, but I think on blowing up sellers pic. it does have the flush mitred seat stays Shaun (and Kilgariff) refers to.
torqueless
Senior Retro Guru
Re:
I remember that ad/drawing from when it was current, but I was a starry-eyed teenager at the time, and to this day, I have yet to see one of those frames close up, 'in the flesh'.
The undercurrent of sarcastic frustration in 41484 vendor's reply is hard to miss. Understandable- he just wants to sell the bike, after all.
I'm no expert, just an enthusiast, and perhaps guilty of over-confident assertions based on incomplete knowledge. The trouble here is that (I think) we are all mainly working from the nkilgariff resource, which is excellent, but there are gaps in it which no other internet source I am aware of seems able to fill. Some smug schadenfreuder has all those missing catalogues stacked up in their loft..
I pulled my forks this morning, dwscrimshaw.. There is no serial number stamped on the steerer-tube.
Are you saying that they came back again on Holdsworth Specials?
I remember that ad/drawing from when it was current, but I was a starry-eyed teenager at the time, and to this day, I have yet to see one of those frames close up, 'in the flesh'.
I did the same and came to the same tentative conclusion..
The undercurrent of sarcastic frustration in 41484 vendor's reply is hard to miss. Understandable- he just wants to sell the bike, after all.
I'm no expert, just an enthusiast, and perhaps guilty of over-confident assertions based on incomplete knowledge. The trouble here is that (I think) we are all mainly working from the nkilgariff resource, which is excellent, but there are gaps in it which no other internet source I am aware of seems able to fill. Some smug schadenfreuder has all those missing catalogues stacked up in their loft..
I pulled my forks this morning, dwscrimshaw.. There is no serial number stamped on the steerer-tube.
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