Holdsworth Frame Numbering

[dwscrimshaw]

Thanks for the info on the Cyclone, I did have this number as a key date for the resumption of the post war 5 Digit system as it was a very definite fix. I didn't have any photos so the link was helpful.

Nice looking bike too

 

[dwscrimshaw]

Thanks also for info on the 1976 Specials, I didn't have one of them and the other I was not sure of the model. I agree with you comments on the numbering system used from 1976 witch puts these at the end of the previous system. Most comments seem to support this changing after the move in 1976.

As far as the spread sheet goes on the first page I have just listed the info reported as found. I have not even tried to confirm if the models stated are correct. There are some anomalies I agree and where the numbers are out of sync I have highlighted them. You can also see the first couple of numbers in the 1976 re-set are stated by their owners to be pre-1976. Also the info on the special 41484 is report as 1974 so on page 1 I have left it as is.

The second page is an attempt to put these in correct order and adjust dates where needed. I have then gone on to try and group them into years. This second page is very much a matter of interpretation for which there could well be many opinions. I hope by reporting the data as is first others can draw there own conclusions.

That said I hope this is still useful and by making it available to down load others can draw their own conclusions.

Thanks again for the info, any more you come across would be useful.

 

[dwscrimshaw]

Updated files with graph for the 70's 6 digit numbers. Not a lot to go on hope its useful.
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... TNKZkN4TmM

 

[PerB]

Very interesting, I have a Norwegian DBS labeled Holdsworth Proffesional from say 1975, the frame number is 4903, how does this fit into the tables? Some pictures of the bike here viewtopic.php?f=12&t=351556

 

[dwscrimshaw]

Thanks, Having looked at the link I would have to rely on other who are more knowledgeable about the model.

If it used a Holdworth number then I would think it would be the 6 Digit system from 1976 on wards. Typically these would carry a zero or two at the front of the number to make it up to six digits. The only other 4 digit systems would be too old. Does your number carry these additional zeros? Looking at the examples I have found one does and the other two do not. the number 4903 would sit around 1977 from my reckoning, but I only have limited numbers to go on with some significant gaps.

That said if it defiantly is only 4 digits it could be a number used for DBS only, in which case would not fit into any of these std numbering systems.

Can you confirm the number of digits used.

 

[PerB]

Re:

There is no additional zeros in the frame number. The frame might be from 76 or 77 aswell as DBS used the same graphics on the racing bikes for a couple of years, The components carries date markings from 75, but they might have been carried over from an other frame, the race teams replaced their frame quite regularly.

 

[dwscrimshaw]

Ok, thanks. If this is a team bike is it possible that it would have totally different number to road bikes? It does seem to fit the 6 Digit system for the sort of years you are indicating. May be someone with more knowledge could confirm what happens with race team bikes. I have added it to the list of numbers with ? on the system used.

 

[PerB]

Re:

I cant say for sure if its a team bike or not, but the DBS La Migliore was a very expensive bike and most of the was custom sized to the rider. My bike has also traces of a hard race life, and I know for sure it was used in racing on national level here in Norway.

 

[dwscrimshaw]

Ok, I guess all we can say then is if it is mid/late 70's vintage and the usual Holdsworth numbers were used then it would fit the 6 Digit system assuming the preceding zero's were omitted making it, by my reckoning, 1977 ish. Of the numbers I have found from this period only one has the double zero at the front, meaning they often missed these or the numbers were not from this system.

Otherwise I guess it could be from a totally different system all together. Sorry can't be more definate

 

[CBguy]

Re:

Hi there,

I think the line for the six digit numbering system should not be linear but more a sigmoid shape. This would reflect the gradual ramping up of production at new factory between 76ish to 85. As you acquire more accurate data points likely this will be apparent.

We know that production of Holdsworth frames in 1972 was at approx 1500 as stated by Kilgariff. This level of production would reconcile with old numbering system progression to 1976 continuing on at same rate. From 16 Claud Butler numbers (different sequence) I have collected from 65 to 75 ish it appears there were approx 2000 Claud frames per year. Thus a total of 3500 frames per year, not including MacLeans and Grubbs which were ceased around time of move in 76. Following move in 76, according to Kilgariff, all numbers for Holdsworth and "Claud" frames were lumped together. He also says production reached 7000 by 1980 and for what it's worth I chatted on line with a former Holdsworth painter who states total production was at 200 per week by mid 80's.
So.. Collecting and using Claud's in this graph would increase firmish data points. I have about a dozen Claud numbers in the 6 digit period. Lowest number I've seen is a probable "mid 70's" Claud Olympic Road number 000017. See:
http://forum.cyclinguk.org/viewtopic.php?t=24130

Hope this helps.

Doug