Holdsworth Frame Numbering

[torqueless]

Re:

dwscrimshaw, every time I see one of your plots I am asked to accept that (0)34264 is about two or three years older than I thought it to be, so much so that I am inclined to throw in the towel. I admit that I don't have much to support my assessment beyond a pair of 17" chainstays. The scans at kilgariff tell me that in '76, Specials had a "16.75 inch rear triangle." In '83, this had changed to 16.5 inch chainstays. In '85, it was 17 inch chainstays. (no information for any other years.)

Earlier today I pulled my stem and found an '82 date code, (which doesn't necessarily denote an '82 frame, but if original, gives a 'not before' date.) I have no way of knowing if the stem is original to the frame, but equally there is no particular reason to think it is not. Believe me, I am not psychologically invested in owning a late 1983/1984 Holdsworth- I would actually prefer it to be an '81... I just don't believe that it is.

It's a shame that this thread seems to have encouraged so few to enlarge your data pool. The bikes are out there, (thousands!) but many people are defensive about their serial numbers, and you'd need a king-size gab-gift to charm strangers with Holdsworths into revealing them.

CBguy, Yeah the Claud Butlers.. A sensible suggestion. I heard that Holdsworthy actually produced more Clauds than Holdsworths..

 

[dwscrimshaw]

Thanks again, if anyone needs the throw the towel in it should be me, trying to draw any conclusions from such a limited amount of info. As you say it is amazing there is only a handful of number from 65k frames. A lot of the info from this period is a bit vague, lots of 'mid 80's' and 80's comments.

I am intending to pull in the CB numbers as suggested and look at the production volumes stated to see if something more reliable can be pulled together. In the mean time I stripped back the graph to the info as reported as you can see it is all over the place. looking to the early to mid 80's end I have yours down as 84 which is the lowest in that year, but interestingly would fit easily into 82. This would be inline with your fork date, but at odds with the stay length, not sure what you think of that.

Before I update the charts again I am going to check back on the numbers to see if I can remove some of this uncertainty. To be honest I expected far more of this sort of discussion so bear with me.

 

[dwscrimshaw]

What did the forks reveal about your frame number? did it confirm the first digit?

 

[Midlife]

Holdsworth 41484 is for sale on LFGSS

https://www.lfgss.com/conversations/291 ... nt13150332

Wing on the 531 decal puts it into the 80's as does the style of the frame. This number has been mentioned as belonging to 70's special on this thread?

Shaun

 

[dwscrimshaw]

Thanks, I had this down as a 1976 Special along with some others around that time, including the frame number 41483. These are both mentioned on page 2 of this thread. Am I right to keep these as tail end of the post war 5 Digit system. It could be the latter decals have been added, but I thought 70's would be too early for 531C. Any thoughts?

 

[Midlife]

The LFGSS frame has under BB guides, Allen key brakes, top tube brake cables and what look like short lugs and dropouts (the pics are not clear on this cheap tablet), this plus the decals puts it into the 80's.

Maybe the seller has misread the number?

Shaun

 

[dwscrimshaw]

Thanks, should have added the picture below, what do you think about the other mid 70,s frames?

 

[CBguy]

By chance, is there actually a 0 in front of the 41483 for sale, thus placing frame in early 80's? I've seen the lowly zero neglected in the past, thus adding to the confusion.

 

[torqueless]

Re:

Having both 41483 and 41484 would appear to be a gift from the gods, except for the fact that 41484 is overflowing with anachronisms- it is either an 80s frame with a '70s lugset, or a '70s frame with '80s paint, decals, and braze ons. Like most gifts from the gods, it turns out to be not much of a gift at all! (I am using the terms: "'70s" and "'80s very loosely!)

How about this: Let us provisionally wildly speculate that, for whatever reason, 41484 spent a few years knocking around the Holdsworthy premises in an unfinished state. Later on, in the "'80s", it had braze ons attached, paint and decals applied, and was released onto the market?

The 'gift from the gods' part is that, if there is any true sequentiality to the numbering system, these two frames were likely built the same day. The vendor of 41483 is not insisting his frame is from any given year, and the vendor of 41484 seems to have abandoned insisting his frame is 1974 (or before).. why not split the difference and (provisionally) put both of them at (early?)1975?

Regarding my frame, dwscrimshaw, I pulled the stem and found a date code on it. I have yet to pull the forks and reveal the steerer tube frame number..

On reflection, it is just as likely that the 'Special' chainstays timeline went "16.75...17....16.5....17" rather than "16.75....16.5....17".. Which means that you may as well put down my frame as a (late) '82, if it helps to eliminate a spike in the plot.

How am I to know? Who measured the chainstays? was it the same person every year? Using the same technique? Why were the chainstay lengths considered worth printing in some years and not others? Why were they changing the length anyway? Who cares about any of these questions but me? Do I even care?

Just found this- https://www.dealry.co.uk/src/vintage+claud+butler seems to be a frame number (0?)23034, which oddly is not mentioned anywhere in the ebay listing it links to..
..and the picture contains further evidence supporting the likelihood of my frame also being from 1982. No further objections..

 

[dwscrimshaw]

Thanks, yes you said stem, and I read into it too much and assumed forks. Currently power out at home so no router, using phone. Will work on this once power back.