Help with insurance claim.

[Garuf]

Hello,
recently I've been knocked off my bike and snapped the frame clean at the head tube and down tube, I also bent the bars and the forks and crushed the front wheel hitting a car door. I'm now going through hell trying to prove the origin and value of the bike for the insurance company.

The bike was thought to be a Raleigh special products frame due to it's branding, built in 531c for Roy Swinnerton by RSP and carried raliegh team decals from one of the 80's tour of Britain and was given to my dad refurbished by an unknown shop in Derby in 1995 as payment for some building work. (My dad at the time worked as a Carpenter).

However it gets complicated here. The bottom bracket has "12-83-RS-SOT" hand lettered not stamped I asked my Brother to clean the paint off the bottom bracket and it has "78" stamped onto the bottom bracket shell with a small capital D stamped onto the area nearest the chainstays. The frame itself carries wrap over seat stays and from speaking to the original owner he thinks it's a Brian Rourke frame due to this but "could never be sure" with it being branded as RSP for all the time he'd had it.

After trying to identify the frame by the painted shell number which came to mean nothing I called and spoke to someone at Brian Rourkes who have said the frame sounds like one of theres because of the stays, but the number isn't correct for 531c and that the three frames they built that were ridden by Roy Swinnerton were 753, not 531c and sounded like it had any old stickers applied to it when it was refurbished. I got my Brother to measure the tubing dimension which comes in at 26.8 which I understand isn't the correct dimensions for a 753 frame. They however haven't been able to help on anything else though, especially not value as they're unprepared to deal with an insurance company or to disclose how much was paid for them. which puts me, back to square one.

I need to be able to prove the like for like value of the frame, which being one of would mean a new build but that's just as complicated as no one I've spoke to deals with 753/531c and the one that did, Bob Jacksons, said they wouldn't be prepared to discuss it with me and didn't want to deal with insurance companies.

If anyone could help I'd be eternally thankful.

 

[mattsccm]

My copy is elsewhere but I think Tony Olivers book about touring bikes had the dimensions you need. Not much help I agree but maybe someone else has a copy.

 

[Woz]

First, a sort of disclaimer but I have had to wrangle with insurance:

- Do you need to prove origin, or ownership?
- Insurance companies will - sadly - depreciate it to virtually zero unless you can argue it had significant value on the open market via example, or professional opinion.

I was initially quoted only £30 due to some "table" of depreciation by date, but provided a full detailed spec with invoices from Ebay even for each part of the bike included weights and they sent it to several bike shops to validate. Low and behold, after explaining the whole Retro/Vintage bike thing and comparing it to Retro/Vintage Cars, it then came up to £800 of replaceable value.

If - and I may be off here - you make it clear to the bike shops you are interested in a new custom build with them - regardless of tubing choice, I'm reasonably sure they will talk to insurance companies. I don't think you could expect an exact replica. Try to get the maximum money to off-set the losses so you are back on a bike.

 

[Garuf]

Thanks, both.

They've asked that I prove it's like for like value, that being for the whole bike, I however can't prove any sort of values unless I know exactly what it is I was riding. There's a marked difference between the value of 531c and 753 for example, like I initially believed the frame to be made from. Having the frame handed down to me, the only thing I added was new brake pads and bar tape complicates things further as it means I don't even know the value of the bike to start with.

I had spoken to woodrups who are my nearest shop here in Leeds about dealing with insurance companies or to provide a build but didn't really get anywhere, no estimated prices without being measured up and paying a deposit for tubing etc.

It's basically just a massive minefield in trying to prove the value of the frame, the groupset is easier because you can't really go wrong when it has "super record" written on everything, the front wheel was an open pro as was the back. I could really avoid with having to weight everything though especially as the bike is dumped with my parents as I've nowhere to keep a trashed bike.

I don't even know how you could obtain professional opinion on such a thing? Example is similarly tricky I guess?

 

[Lazarus]

Hi Garuf Woz gives a perfect example buddy of how to get the insurance companies to "understand" the valueing process. Ultimately, no offence here, you seem to be trying to prove what brand it was instead of simply telling the insurance company it was a 531c OR a 753. Now I'm sure this bit will start a humungous row, but, in all truth the tubing determines the value of a frame, then we add to that "who built it ?", then we add "what was it badged as ?". You are perhaps my friend in a minefield because of the way you see your situation.

Scenario : If I lost my "dodgy" Geoffrey Butler in the same manner you had, it would come down to this: "It was definately top tubing because of weight & dimensions. It was a pure class build because of the lugs used and the Cinelli aero BB. The builder of the frame will never be known, it was unstamped. It was badged 753r (road) was the exact correct weight for that type of tubing. It was branded Butler, but hey, what's in a name ? (Hetchins might add some value) Butler, Graham Weigh, Walvale, Quinn, the list is endless. Genuine Special Build Raleighs (this is where you need someone like RK who knows this stuff inside out) might add some extra value.

A replacement is simply "the correct tubing & lugwork used, identical respray of colours, of a period correct frame" Ideally it would be badged the same, but, IMHO so what if a Graham Weigh becomes Stan Smith so long as I get my 753 frame back Massive difference to riding a 531c over a 753. Got a 531c now, let go of my Butler (like a fool) and miss dearly it's unmistakeable 753 ride & geometry.

You just need the insurance company to understand that a replacement 531c bike is NOT good enough for your lost 753r. This is a scenario, not real PS: My Butler wasn't actually dodgy, but it became a misnomma because of the branding/decals not matching the tubing & lugwork.

Best of luck, and please don't be offended if any of this strikes a raw nerve, tis not meant to Un-mine the minefield and all you have to negotiate is the field. Plain english speaking to the insurance will make them easily see that "Class frames & components cannot be replaced with lesser quality". There is your keyword, "Quality" Quality does not = Value. Tell them it's a 531c (27mm inner seattube) and let them prove otherwise, stop giving them TMI, keep it simple and to the point "you want a 531c frame in top condition, have it stripped professionally & resprayed, and all damaged components replaced with like for like".

It sounds to me like the insurance are on your case because you don't know what your bike was. Don't dig that hole any deeper or wider, be certain it was 531c and stick to your guns Later buddy, Laz.

PS: My Butler was sold as a genuine 753 because of 1 defining factor "the brase was silver not bronze/brass" 753 was never made via any other method than silver brasing because of heat factors" If your lugs are silver brased it was definately 753, bronze it was 531c or less. Scrape away the paint until the lug brase shows. If its silver explain to them what I've just told you. The argument will end right there & then because this fact can be easily researched by them. They should then pay up

 

[Woz]

Laz tried to make the point a little more pointy. Be economical with some of the truths

Professional opnion, in general means from a reputable legally established bike shop. PS: Don't even mention "according to Retrobike engineers"

"one of the 80's tour of Britain" = A professional calibre bike, and not any old dross in flat pack from Tesco. Make that totally clear.

"753 throughout hand built in Britain" = Don't confuse them any more than these three digits. Insurance companies basic interest is not to pay and put the phone down quickly; so be short to the point in all correspondance; more facts and paper justification from independant experts helps. They may go to Google too for some internal validation; which what my insurance company did so position the bike description appropriately.....so to speak. Blatent use of Campagnolo Super Record throughout (even down to the little seat binder bolt and those Ti crank bolts). Ask for a lot, be happy with little.

"no estimated prices without being measured up and paying a deposit for tubing etc. " = Game is on in my hears! There's probably so many time wasters that they want a firm commitment from you that you are serious about playing the game too. As long as you understand the process and get reasonably acquainted it should work out.

Best wishes with it!

 

[Garuf]

Thanks for the tips, I'm waiting on a text back from my brother to find out if the braising on the Lugs is silver or bronze.

So really I should forget who it was made by and prove unequivocally what the frame was made from?

With regards to Woodrups, yeah I think they must just think I'm a time waster, a good way to make people commit is to have them put their hand in their pockets.

Once I've done that it should be a matter of listing the components and sending it off? I suppose that still doesn't cover the value though does it?

Thanks so far everyone.

 

[Garuf]

Just head back from my brother, the braising is all silver, or at least it's not bronze.

 

[Lazarus]

So my friend, follow the above good advice, keep it short and to the point, then don't back off "ie: It's 753 because the brase is silver NOT bronze etc ". Best of luck, Laz.

PS: Cheers Woz

 

[Old Ned]

Not trying to be 'picky' but I seriously doubt that Brian Rourke would have had a frame built for Roy Swinnerton as they are rival competing shops in the Stoke area. I am sure that Roy would have been able to source his own frame builders (many of the earlier RS frames were Mercians) especially if the frame was for his personal use. He was well retired from racing by the time 753 appeared.

However, a Brian Rourke badged 753 frame from Raleigh SP is well within the bounds of possibility if not probability as I'm not sure whether Brian's frame builder at the time was 753 registered.