Frame ID - Concorde Aquila 1986? Ciocc?

[internetuser]

Hi all

Struggling to determine the provenance of this frame. I only know what the seller told me- ie what the person they'd bought it from told them. The story goes:

this was a road bike from the 1980s. The guy who sold it to me said he’d bought it from new at the 1986 commonwealth games but later converted it into a track/fixie frame at the rear end.

and after further questioning,

I’m reasonably sure it’s original and refurbished/modded because it came with the original forks which are all old and rusted up. The guy originally told me it was a road bike from an African team in the commonwealth games. Columbus SL.

I was suspicious given the lack of badging, imprints (perhaps these things were lost through time and refurb - maybe they're under the current finish), that most (but not all!) African nations had boycotted the 1986 games, suspicious at the lack of downtube braze-ons I would have expected to see on a vintage road bike - though if someone was willing to fabricate track ends then I guess they may have also tidied up other aspects.. but why leave the race tag braze-on except for race connotation? On the other hand, the headtube/downtube lug has a Ciocc cutout, playing into persistent Concorde-Ciocc rumour... seems too much of a niche coincidence for someone to have crafted such deception?! Searching on the internet shows that this was indeed a thing, as can be seen on the 8th photo here.

Searching 'concorde' 'ciocc 'track' keywords together yields a couple of 'known' Concorde/Ciocc track frames from the 80's. Yet there are still discrepancies. I don't know what to think, but I have a gut feeling that it's authentic. Appreciate any and all thoughts on this!

 

[Seanaus]

What does the BB shell look like? This picture is an 1985 ish Concorde Aquila from the Ciocc / Cicli John factory. Multiple different builders made Concorde frames at different times, Ciocc was definitely one of them, though it's generally accepted that this was after Giovanni Pelizzoli had sold the business. Have a search for Conti track bikes too, this was another brand from the same factory at about that time.

Is it 120 rear spacing? Italian BB shell? Any numbers stamped on the BB shell? I can't see any reason why anyone would convert a road frame to track given the amount of work to totally remove and reconstruct the rear triangle, just to end up with a track bike with road geometry.

EDIT: I forgot to ask, what's the seatpost size too, and are there any signs of brake cable guides, internal brake cable, or front derailleur hanger having been removed?

 

[tsturm]

What does the BB shell look like? This picture is an 1985 ish Concorde Aquila from the Ciocc / Cicli John factory. Multiple different builders made Concorde frames at different times, Ciocc was definitely one of them, though it's generally accepted that this was after Giovanni Pelizzoli had sold the business. Have a search for Conti track bikes too, this was another brand from the same factory at about that time.

Is it 120 rear spacing? Italian BB shell? Any numbers stamped on the BB shell? I can't see any reason why anyone would convert a road frame to track given the amount of work to totally remove and reconstruct the rear triangle, just to end up with a track bike with road geometry.

EDIT: I forgot to ask, what's the seatpost size too, and are there any signs of brake cable guides, internal brake cable, or front derailleur hanger having been removed?





View attachment 774495

Hi Seanaus, I ended up buying this frame off the original poster of this thread. Unfortunately he didn't respond to your questions.
I would like to answer those questions toward perhaps figuring out what happened to this frame or what it is. You will see in the second picture, there is evidence, perhaps, that this frame did have significant changes or was a road frame:
-The frame is 120 spacing.
-The bb is italian threaded, Cinelli. But with the same Club cutout as yours.
-No evidence of a front mech or any cable routing and the read stay bridge isn't drilled for a read brake.
-The seatpost is 27.0 (though OP said it was 26.8, it had been over-tightened). Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe the only Coumbus tubing to ream 27.0 is SP and SPX. It isn't SPX, but might be SP (though it is a little light for SP, this frame is 1870 grams [ size 59c-t]). See image below for numbering on the shell (a 7 and 11). Any thoughts on what that might mean?:


The best evidence to support OP's purchasing narrative is that this is a converted road frame is: 1. the waterbottle mounts and 2. the dropout brazing. Where the chainstays meet the drop-out almost looks crimped. I don't think I've seen this style of brazing used here. The brazing looks poor on the seatstay too, like it was done outside a factory space, though that might be poor paint. I can see brush strokes in this area. Have you seen this style of crimped brazing?



Thank you! Any thoughts very welcome.

 

[DSH]

I had an Aquila with SL rather than SLX tubes, so an 84 or 85 (I guess) the bottom bracket cut out looks similar, but the Panto on the Lugs were the Concorde logs and there was the Italian flag brazed on the top tube.

This should suggest that your frame is a Ciocc but probably/possibly not an Aquila .

Whatever it is, the usual rules apply: ride it and enjoy it

 

[pigman]

My

Hi Seanaus, I ended up buying this frame off the original poster of this thread. Unfortunately he didn't respond to your questions.
I would like to answer those questions toward perhaps figuring out what happened to this frame or what it is. You will see in the second picture, there is evidence, perhaps, that this frame did have significant changes or was a road frame:
-The frame is 120 spacing.
-The bb is italian threaded, Cinelli. But with the same Club cutout as yours.
-No evidence of a front mech or any cable routing and the read stay bridge isn't drilled for a read brake.
-The seatpost is 27.0 (though OP said it was 26.8, it had been over-tightened). Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe the only Coumbus tubing to ream 27.0 is SP and SPX. It isn't SPX, but might be SP (though it is a little light for SP, this frame is 1870 grams [ size 59c-t]). See image below for numbering on the shell (a 7 and 11). Any thoughts on what that might mean?:
View attachment 815864

The best evidence to support OP's purchasing narrative is that this is a converted road frame is: 1. the waterbottle mounts and 2. the dropout brazing. Where the chainstays meet the drop-out almost looks crimped. I don't think I've seen this style of brazing used here. The brazing looks poor on the seatstay too, like it was done outside a factory space, though that might be poor paint. I can see brush strokes in this area. Have you seen this style of crimped brazing?

View attachment 815865

Thank you! Any thoughts very welcome.

My bro's SPX Somec back in the day had a standard 27.2 seatpin

 

[tsturm]

I had an Aquila with SL rather than SLX tubes, so an 84 or 85 (I guess) the bottom bracket cut out looks similar, but the Panto on the Lugs were the Concorde logs and there was the Italian flag brazed on the top tube.

This should suggest that your frame is a Ciocc but probably/possibly not an Aquila .

Whatever it is, the usual rules apply: ride it and enjoy it

Interesting, thank you. Certainly Ciocc then, maybe made for Concorde, but who knows.

I'm still collecting parts for it, but yes! I'm excited to get this thing on the road!

 

[tsturm]

My

My bro's SPX Somec back in the day had a standard 27.2 seatpin

OK, interesting. That potentially suggests another tube set. I've read that some track frames can be a mix of SP and SL if they are a larger size. No idea if that is true, however,

 

[Seanaus]

So, I've been thinking about this a bit. I think this was originally a Ciocc road bike rather than a Concorde, given the pantograph on the lower head tube lug. The track conversion doesn't seem to be the same standard of workmanship, as previously noted. The seat stay caps are certainly not as elegant as a Ciocc one. The cable guides under the bb on these were generally just formed sheetmetal pieces that would be easily ground off. Concorde Aquila were SL originally, then, if I'm understanding the catalogs correctly the Aquila was dropped from the product line at some point. It was reintroduced in the 91 catalog in SLX, and was made by Billato at that time. Mine has no numbers in the lug window, and one number on the bb shell that I can't decipher, so that's no help. If you haven't seen it, here's a link to a video of bike production in the factory where your frame likely began life.

 

[tsturm]

So, I've been thinking about this a bit. I think this was originally a Ciocc road bike rather than a Concorde, given the pantograph on the lower head tube lug. The track conversion doesn't seem to be the same standard of workmanship, as previously noted. The seat stay caps are certainly not as elegant as a Ciocc one. The cable guides under the bb on these were generally just formed sheetmetal pieces that would be easily ground off. Concorde Aquila were SL originally, then, if I'm understanding the catalogs correctly the Aquila was dropped from the product line at some point. It was reintroduced in the 91 catalog in SLX, and was made by Billato at that time. Mine has no numbers in the lug window, and one number on the bb shell that I can't decipher, so that's no help. If you haven't seen it, here's a link to a video of bike production in the factory where your frame likely began life.

Seanus, first off, apologies for the delayed response. I don't check this often and didn't get a notification.

Second, this video is incredible. Style knew no bounds back then in Italy. The oxy-acetylene assembly-line was just fantastic: cobra shades and wool sweaters. Ha! And that paint guy, I hope that isn't lead paint (something I discovered on a late 70s frame recently). Apparently the stuff was being used on frames well into the mid-80s despite policy. Apparently it was great stuff, stuck to any dirt or imperfections. Too bad it is a neurotoxin and damaging to the renal system.

Third, you are right, there is no question this is a Ciocc frame. But, both Ciocc and Concorde (via Ciocc) make pista frames. It is possible they replaced the rear triangle (but then why the strange crimping at the chainstays?). It has 120 spacing, i don't believe the chainstay was bent, the seat stay would show deflection (or of course the brake bridge was replaced [ciocc bridges are angular] and re-brased, but this would still require bending).

Fourth, this video illsutraes that a frame took a lot of resources and labour. I just looked up some Ciocc catalogues, a Ciocc frame went for between £800-1400 (adjusting for inflation). I like its mystery and history, an indefinitely open question. Unquestionably, however, it is a nice and straight frame I'm excited to built up.

Thank you for your thoughts!

 

[alifakbar]

I have concorde track too, but dont know the series and the original fork