Fixing a Victorian
- Thread starter Nabeaquam
- Start date
Mickeyspinn
rBotM Winner
Yeah basically its use what you got and the skills you got to make it happen! By that time tho the mechanised industrial Revolution had happened it was now the begining of the space race...kinda!
I'd imagine the plant that produced the sheet and or tube had moved on from horse in a pit power and were at least steam....quite possible that it was electric aswell in 1890! Edison was selling motors then
just trying to find a good pic of the kind of scary machines used for stamping sheet......they work fast.....as quick as you can feed it fast.ive used one it's very scary 
fingers limbs etc can just disappear in a mushy mist!Here's a pic....it's a little baby one! That wheel hanging off the side probably weighs around 1/4 ton spins around 100 ish rpm....that's the inertia for the "punch". Would've been lines of these being used all powered of a big gantry style belt driven system.....I bet there's still places in the world working like that!
Nabeaquam
BoTM Winner
This bicycle may predate motorcycles, not sure?Actually, on some of the photographs of the Madison Square track, all the advertising is for Motorbikes.
Like I said early, it must have been a whacky time for technology. But let's not forget that a lot was also born out of fine wood working, using templates, formers, guides, jigs, etc.
Could the form of the forks and cuts simply be modelled with good old wood, paper and a pencil prior?
A bit like a tailor or shoe maker would with cloth without thinking twice at all?
PS: I've started drinking, if that wasn't obvious already
Mickeyspinn
rBotM Winner
Possibly but don't forget electric cars and scooter type things beat the internal combustion engine by a few decades!
Nabeaquam
BoTM Winner
My great great uncle George was the chief engineer when one of the locks at the St. Marys falls was built. His construction documentation photographs included using horses, steam shovels and some electric lines. This was brute force, not finess, but pretty sophisticated machines and surveys were used. Lots of rebar. I think the tubing panels were rolled, dimpled and punched out by machine, I think they could do that. They could make tubing so they probably modified the process. The stays aren’t tapered, that would have further blown my mind. The fork construction has me baffled.Yeah basically its use what you got and the skills you got to make it happen! By that time tho the mechanised industrial Revolution had happened it was now the begining of the space race...kinda!
I'd imagine the plant that produced the sheet and or tube had moved on from horse in a pit power and were at least steam....quite possible that it was electric aswell in 1890! Edison was selling motors then
Here's a pic....it's a little baby one! That wheel hanging off the side probably weighs around 1/4 ton spins around 100 ish rpm....that's the inertia for the "punch". Would've been lines of these being used all powered of a big gantry style belt driven system.....I bet there's still places in the world working like that!
View attachment 636490
Nabeaquam
BoTM Winner
I think back in this discussion I posted a copy of a 1890s patent for an electric bicycle. I couldn’t have gone far. The only reason there are motorcycles is because of bicycles. As far as I’m concerned motorcycles were invented as track pacers for bicycles as five man bicycles weren’t fast enough. That’s my theory and you can’t convince me otherwise.
Mickeyspinn
rBotM Winner
I think I have the fork forming sussed!...well it works in my head! ....I think
The brazing....I really don't know enough about but we're talking of a time when skill was common place... everyone had a trade!I can't see the forks being formed to a curve after being made into a tube....I reckon that would cause way too much stress to those toothed joints...the braze wouldn't let go but the steel would.
Does the joint size between main tubes,forks and stays vary much or is it all consistent and the same?
I'll have to have a look at the Mary's falls locks....big stuff..like it! I have french cousins who do big maritime civil engineering.
^
You took the words out of my mouth. This is what I think:
a) Forget mega industrialisation at the bike builder. While it's clear there were big bucks in this bike and potentially big bucks to
gain, this is not Ford we are talking about.
b) Don't rule out man power. And a fleet of people if necessary.
c) I too think the sheet metal is made - somewhere - to a specification. It is formed, stamped and delivered, except the forks!
d) There is no post bending at all of the fork, it's formed, and brazed and finished ni house at the bike builder.
e) Who ever did the tubes wasn't a bike designer. It's so blown out and on another level. What I do think, the bike designer did
what they are good at, design the fork, rake, crown, and specified the tubes etc.
f )To do the sheet metal, like you have said, requires machinery for repeatability.
g) If you took a wheel punching regular slots for a dovetail, it would not account for the curve. There needs to be a linear press
to account for minute variations of dovetail dimensions at the curve.
h) A linear press - the tooling - could only be made based on a positive prototype. The machine being the negative.
i) The only way to make a positive prototype I think is by making a template using all the old tricks in the book.
j) I don't think we should rule out a bit of sub-contracted forming and a bit of manual forming in house at the bike builder,
what I'm saying is there could be an initial sheet punched, and it's filled down where necessary manually to allow for the curve.
k) ......back then....people got there hands dirty. Engineers and technicians were king. The bean counter didn't meddle with the product,
nor have any particular say in the matter. The bean counter had to fix things behind closed doors.
You took the words out of my mouth. This is what I think:
a) Forget mega industrialisation at the bike builder. While it's clear there were big bucks in this bike and potentially big bucks to
gain, this is not Ford we are talking about.
b) Don't rule out man power. And a fleet of people if necessary.
c) I too think the sheet metal is made - somewhere - to a specification. It is formed, stamped and delivered, except the forks!
d) There is no post bending at all of the fork, it's formed, and brazed and finished ni house at the bike builder.
e) Who ever did the tubes wasn't a bike designer. It's so blown out and on another level. What I do think, the bike designer did
what they are good at, design the fork, rake, crown, and specified the tubes etc.
f )To do the sheet metal, like you have said, requires machinery for repeatability.
g) If you took a wheel punching regular slots for a dovetail, it would not account for the curve. There needs to be a linear press
to account for minute variations of dovetail dimensions at the curve.
h) A linear press - the tooling - could only be made based on a positive prototype. The machine being the negative.
i) The only way to make a positive prototype I think is by making a template using all the old tricks in the book.
j) I don't think we should rule out a bit of sub-contracted forming and a bit of manual forming in house at the bike builder,
what I'm saying is there could be an initial sheet punched, and it's filled down where necessary manually to allow for the curve.
k) ......back then....people got there hands dirty. Engineers and technicians were king. The bean counter didn't meddle with the product,
nor have any particular say in the matter. The bean counter had to fix things behind closed doors.
One of the adverts was for Indian. Wikipedia states founded in 1897. First motorbike in 1901.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_Motocycle_Manufacturing_Company
