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Using the Mail as a source. :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm:
Using the Mail as a source. :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm:
EU, impartial facts. Where to find
- Thread starter Mike Muz
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M-Power
Old School Grand Master
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If you read The Guardian or follow the BBC of course it's all misinformation. The EU are doing an incredible job running a demanding show, work long hours for peanuts and we should all be forever indebted to them for making the sun shine too
There are non so blind as those who WILL NOT SEE..... Most of this is public domain. An EU Army is proposed at how many €Trillions ? to deal with Putin's expansionist agenda. We can get on well with the Russians on the space programme yet we need to waste obscene amounts of money better spent elsewhere on defence.
Join up the dots...it's not rocket science.
brocklanders023":2rzjwar8 said:
If you read The Guardian or follow the BBC of course it's all misinformation. The EU are doing an incredible job running a demanding show, work long hours for peanuts and we should all be forever indebted to them for making the sun shine too
There are non so blind as those who WILL NOT SEE..... Most of this is public domain. An EU Army is proposed at how many €Trillions ? to deal with Putin's expansionist agenda. We can get on well with the Russians on the space programme yet we need to waste obscene amounts of money better spent elsewhere on defence.
Join up the dots...it's not rocket science.
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Do you not know it's possible to spin factual information in to a story that suits your agenda? If you use the Mail (or Sun) as a point of reference and don't accept the huge bias they add to virtually any story then it's not me that's blind. :facepalm:
Oh, and I don't read any paper as you can't trust any of them.
Do you not know it's possible to spin factual information in to a story that suits your agenda? If you use the Mail (or Sun) as a point of reference and don't accept the huge bias they add to virtually any story then it's not me that's blind. :facepalm:
Oh, and I don't read any paper as you can't trust any of them.
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Which is the major problem.
technodup":62zuzqya said:
Which is the major problem.
This is just a US conspiracy theory playbook bein re-treaded:
"Make America Great Again" (thanks Donald), "UN Army about to invade", in fact the EU is totally bad and stunts our intelligence so that we will magically become innovative, enterprising and wonderful the moment we leave.
A lot of people have had an incredibly shitty deal in the UK since the early 1970s with the collapse of traditional heavy industries, globalisation, the rise of China, containerised freight, mass telecommunications, fall of the Berlin Wall, etc etc etc. The gap between rich and poor has grown alarmingly and we have career politicians who have never worked in the real world. These people have justifiable grievances. They cannot be fixed with magic wands or one single action. I'd love to understand how leaving the EU will create jobs for unskilled people in South Wales for example.
However that is not the EU's fault - the same has happened everywhere else. Ask someone from Detroit or Dortmund. Blaming all our ills on the EU fixes the wrong problem.
"Make America Great Again" (thanks Donald), "UN Army about to invade", in fact the EU is totally bad and stunts our intelligence so that we will magically become innovative, enterprising and wonderful the moment we leave.
A lot of people have had an incredibly shitty deal in the UK since the early 1970s with the collapse of traditional heavy industries, globalisation, the rise of China, containerised freight, mass telecommunications, fall of the Berlin Wall, etc etc etc. The gap between rich and poor has grown alarmingly and we have career politicians who have never worked in the real world. These people have justifiable grievances. They cannot be fixed with magic wands or one single action. I'd love to understand how leaving the EU will create jobs for unskilled people in South Wales for example.
However that is not the EU's fault - the same has happened everywhere else. Ask someone from Detroit or Dortmund. Blaming all our ills on the EU fixes the wrong problem.
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i read alot of stuff on this subject now and i'm still torn,
overall i think the economy is gonna swing it for me, we know what happens if we stay, basically nothing changes, if we leave it's uncertain and potentially damaging, atleast in the short term. but overall i think either way we'd end up alright because i agree with some of the Leave people who say that people won't stop buying from us just because we leave, if we have something that someone wants to pay for they are not gonna say "sod off you left the EU!"
on the other hand there are things that the EU want to do that could affect us negatively, i think the NHS is something that could go down the private route if we stay but that sort of is happening anyway.
the workers rights etc, well we're not a third world country so i don't think we'll see massive changes there to be honest. job losses? maybe, and that's bad but there could also be job increases, we just don't know!
what does bother me is the money we put in now gets us rebates, but if we leave but we still have to pay alot to trade with the EU it's almost the same but we don't get the rebates so the money that the Leave campaign says will be available might not be there.
i still don't like the way the laws are made and i also don't think we have a big say in what goes on, the video posted earlier in this thread from the guy at the Spectator magazine is quite damning of the process for example. and also the way we've lost ground in the ability to Veto things, and lets face it we've never really had any major support from other countries when we've tried to change something and to change stuff now we would need that support.
long term i don't like the idea that the EU is trying to get every country on board, there have been countries in the EU that financially shouldn't be there, greece should never have been let in i think and they're worse off for it. i also think there is an element that adding other countries with weaker economies and currencies lowers the average so to speak.
i do like the freedom of movement for workers, but not freedom anyone to abuse the benefit system, if a guy comes here to live and work if he's gonna claim benefits for his family they should be living here and make a commitment to this country and not just send the money out of this country, that to me is wrong.
i have talked about this with other people as well and i'm trying to work out what i think the pros and cons are to genuinely make an informed opinion, i think one thing that is happening is the similarity with the Scottish referendum, the poles had it that it was close but in the end scotland stayed and i think that was because the people who wanted to leave shouted louder, the more quiet reserved people who wanted to stay just kept to themselves which i think is happening here.
i was also surprised to hear a farmer and a fisherman say they wanted to leave, as i thought the rebates were good for their industry but apparently the system generally doesn't work for them for other reasons that frankly i don't know enough about.
i think that despite the loudness of the Leave campaign i think we'll stay in, partially out of fear of going it alone into the unknown.
one thing that does bother me specifically about the campaign though, it's tory against tory, my opinion is that it should have been a more of a mix, the labour parties line is Remain, but Jeremy Corbyn previously wanted out, i think this campaign should have been a cross party thing with people from both sides of the political spectrum arguing for and against, i think we'd know alot more and without the rhetoric and dave against boris crap because the "if boris wins he'll be after dave's job" rubbish would have been irrelevant.
i read alot of stuff on this subject now and i'm still torn,
overall i think the economy is gonna swing it for me, we know what happens if we stay, basically nothing changes, if we leave it's uncertain and potentially damaging, atleast in the short term. but overall i think either way we'd end up alright because i agree with some of the Leave people who say that people won't stop buying from us just because we leave, if we have something that someone wants to pay for they are not gonna say "sod off you left the EU!"
on the other hand there are things that the EU want to do that could affect us negatively, i think the NHS is something that could go down the private route if we stay but that sort of is happening anyway.
the workers rights etc, well we're not a third world country so i don't think we'll see massive changes there to be honest. job losses? maybe, and that's bad but there could also be job increases, we just don't know!
what does bother me is the money we put in now gets us rebates, but if we leave but we still have to pay alot to trade with the EU it's almost the same but we don't get the rebates so the money that the Leave campaign says will be available might not be there.
i still don't like the way the laws are made and i also don't think we have a big say in what goes on, the video posted earlier in this thread from the guy at the Spectator magazine is quite damning of the process for example. and also the way we've lost ground in the ability to Veto things, and lets face it we've never really had any major support from other countries when we've tried to change something and to change stuff now we would need that support.
long term i don't like the idea that the EU is trying to get every country on board, there have been countries in the EU that financially shouldn't be there, greece should never have been let in i think and they're worse off for it. i also think there is an element that adding other countries with weaker economies and currencies lowers the average so to speak.
i do like the freedom of movement for workers, but not freedom anyone to abuse the benefit system, if a guy comes here to live and work if he's gonna claim benefits for his family they should be living here and make a commitment to this country and not just send the money out of this country, that to me is wrong.
i have talked about this with other people as well and i'm trying to work out what i think the pros and cons are to genuinely make an informed opinion, i think one thing that is happening is the similarity with the Scottish referendum, the poles had it that it was close but in the end scotland stayed and i think that was because the people who wanted to leave shouted louder, the more quiet reserved people who wanted to stay just kept to themselves which i think is happening here.
i was also surprised to hear a farmer and a fisherman say they wanted to leave, as i thought the rebates were good for their industry but apparently the system generally doesn't work for them for other reasons that frankly i don't know enough about.
i think that despite the loudness of the Leave campaign i think we'll stay in, partially out of fear of going it alone into the unknown.
one thing that does bother me specifically about the campaign though, it's tory against tory, my opinion is that it should have been a more of a mix, the labour parties line is Remain, but Jeremy Corbyn previously wanted out, i think this campaign should have been a cross party thing with people from both sides of the political spectrum arguing for and against, i think we'd know alot more and without the rhetoric and dave against boris crap because the "if boris wins he'll be after dave's job" rubbish would have been irrelevant.
technodup
Senior Retro Guru
And how will staying in do it? By funnelling 'EU' money towards them? Money that came from us, got bounced around Brussels, minus all the costs and a bit handed back?hamster":335rer6a said:
If it's so great you might think they'd have done it already. Except they have far bigger unemployment issues in Spain, Greece, Portugal etc that they can't deal with because the EU is a basket case. Wales is but a tiny speck on their horizon. As we'll always be.
Nobody's saying Brexit will solve all our problems. But it solves the most important one, having accountability in our democratic process.
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@johnnyboy666, @hamster:
Do you guys in the New Forest remember the Transit plant that was shut down in Swaythling and moved to Turkey with the help of an EU loan?
http://www.dailyecho.co.uk/news/1002027 ... lose_ours/
Even after that, Nick Clegg was still rabbiting on about how "the EU is good for jobs and prosperity".
[Edit: I forgot to mention that the Swiss have just withdrawn their application to join the European Union -- "Only 'lunatics' would join now"...
http://www.breitbart.com/london/2016/06 ... -join-now/ ]
@johnnyboy666, @hamster:
Do you guys in the New Forest remember the Transit plant that was shut down in Swaythling and moved to Turkey with the help of an EU loan?
http://www.dailyecho.co.uk/news/1002027 ... lose_ours/
Even after that, Nick Clegg was still rabbiting on about how "the EU is good for jobs and prosperity".
[Edit: I forgot to mention that the Swiss have just withdrawn their application to join the European Union -- "Only 'lunatics' would join now"...
http://www.breitbart.com/london/2016/06 ... -join-now/ ]
highlandsflyer
Retro Wizard
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EU madness and corruption are rife!
I have a number of family and friends farming, and involved in property.
On the one hand we have hundreds of acres of rich land to beef barely scraping a decent turnover thanks to the supermarkets monopoly on pricing, and the paucity of help available to protect a vital industry.
On the other hand I know those claiming lots of subsidies for 'farming' land which attracts extra subsidies thanks to the terrain/location. They don't actually grow anything, other than tatties and such for their own table, (and dope). They also claim again for 'croft improvements'; money they use to convert outbuildings/build lodges and install yurts and the like for very profitable holiday rentals.
The real killer however is several are claiming for animals they DON'T EVEN HAVE!
Yes, you can receive subsidies for invisible, virtual animals under the EU system.
Just about every project of any kind and business start up of any size has developers with their eyes firmly on the EU grants available. With the result, many older buildings and redevelopment opportunities are passed over in favour of new builds that will maximise the aid available. Many solid business ideas are left unfunded in favour of Tarquin and Jemima's New Age Flavoured Water Plant, which is sufficiently 'diverse' to get the EU money..
I lose count of the number of businesses that started up with large grant aid, milked it for years and then folded. Just in my local area of knowledge.
We could do a much better job controlling these things domestically.
Of course I don't know that for certain, but I would point to the evidence that they are currently being controlled TERRIBLY from abroad.
EU madness and corruption are rife!
I have a number of family and friends farming, and involved in property.
On the one hand we have hundreds of acres of rich land to beef barely scraping a decent turnover thanks to the supermarkets monopoly on pricing, and the paucity of help available to protect a vital industry.
On the other hand I know those claiming lots of subsidies for 'farming' land which attracts extra subsidies thanks to the terrain/location. They don't actually grow anything, other than tatties and such for their own table, (and dope). They also claim again for 'croft improvements'; money they use to convert outbuildings/build lodges and install yurts and the like for very profitable holiday rentals.
The real killer however is several are claiming for animals they DON'T EVEN HAVE!
Yes, you can receive subsidies for invisible, virtual animals under the EU system.
Just about every project of any kind and business start up of any size has developers with their eyes firmly on the EU grants available. With the result, many older buildings and redevelopment opportunities are passed over in favour of new builds that will maximise the aid available. Many solid business ideas are left unfunded in favour of Tarquin and Jemima's New Age Flavoured Water Plant, which is sufficiently 'diverse' to get the EU money..
I lose count of the number of businesses that started up with large grant aid, milked it for years and then folded. Just in my local area of knowledge.
We could do a much better job controlling these things domestically.
Of course I don't know that for certain, but I would point to the evidence that they are currently being controlled TERRIBLY from abroad.
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